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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
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There is never a need to "believe" in anything.
"Believing" is a dead end as it has no logical extension. It leads nowhere.
I "think" the concept of parsimony has been exceedingly useful over the last several millennia.
In common usage the word "believe" has been co-opted in the religious context.
It means thinking something to be true despite the absence of confirming data.
"Think", at least so far, implies freedom of choice on the part of the person.
From webster's 9th:relevant excerpts:
Believe: 1a. To have a firm religious faith, 1b; to accept faithfully and on faith 2. to have a firm conviction as to the reality or goodness of something.
3. To hold an opinion
Meaning 3 has been subjugated in popular usage.
Think: To consider to be true or honest; to hold an opinion
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
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The Bible says don't add to it or take away from it!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
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As so many are clear it is all about trying to get you to reject your faith.
An ass-backwards characterization; like saying those who are pro-choice are trying to get more abortions.
It's not about rejecting faith, it's about embracing rigorous rationality.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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It is about use of language in a way that supports good function in society.
I will note here that those who count "faith" and proper treatment of their fellows to be their strong suit, are the most ready to cast aspersions on the quality. integrity, and intelligence of those with whom they disagree.
If I understand what Jesus said and if I 'believed" we all would one day stand in judgment, I would be very worried had I a history of acting in this way.
It is good that this is so. For so long as this behavior continues we will never forget that people of this conviction were once pleased to cause their fellows to be burned alive at the stake.
We have all the data needed to convince us nothing has changed.
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
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Why so snippy skippy?
I've never had faith in your (or my) rationality skip; I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
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That's just Bananas!
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WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
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It's monkey business!
(edit) thanks, single-stone.
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monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
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I like your style Wanda!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
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Cool, I trim trees!!!
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
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jstan, if you can just be patient and bear with me....I have serious close friend health issues going on here.....and jstan
I appreciate all you have posted and want to comment, but I want to try and give you a good thoughtful response.
EDIT: Three issues I want to address....I'll begin with the last. BELIEVING.... I believe my husband is coming home tonight. I believe my child will make it home from school. I believe my best friend will always be just that....my best friend.
To me believing is a gut feeling that it will happen. Believing.....vs. Faith.
In the Websters....Belief is an opinion or conviction
In the Websters...Faith is confidence/trust
So I do not believe in my friend jesus....I have faith in him for lynnies life.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
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Wrote Oscar Hammerstein:
Who can understand it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you answers-
Wise me never try.
Problem is, it's sometimes fun and stimulating to try and provide "answers" and to be "right." But push this too far and I can be a "fool" every time.
JL
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
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There's no rush Lynnie. Just take it easy. Tomorrow we are off on an adventure.
Hooblie and I are taking a step into the future. He is coming North by bus and I am going south by bus(Coastal Express) to Ventura with our bicycles. Then we will bicycle around Ventura stopping every few minutes to slander everybody and everything most viciously. I don't have an iPhone so there will be no texting. If anyone sees a blue cloud over Ventura, not to worry.
Some day it would be nice to put on my touron hat and bicycle around Europe, but not tomorrow.
Catch you later.
PS:
Read your post. That's cool.
I "think" a lot of our problems are made worse because we are not careful enough in how we use words.
I think you have got it.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:07am PT
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Yo, Peace to you jstan....and have a super great time. I Be brain searching to put a good cause/correlary when you return. Have Fun and be Safe....but mostly HAVE FUN. Smiles, lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:09am PT
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John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed.
Man's efforts to understand go back to the time we needed to know where the wildebeasts would be pasturing and when the big cats would be out there hunting them( and us). The individual who did not try to figure that out was a fool. A short lived/hungry one.
Now it is all we can do to set the clocks on our TiVo.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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OMG, I am becoming a jstan ......friend, consensus person. Largo, our life is large here due to dudes like jstan.
It all started at Camp 4. Yikes.....:DD lynnie
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jstan
climber
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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I made that up about Anders. But it is a good line.
"Lynnie, I wouldn't do that were I you."
What Lynnie has to offer is more important.
Edit:
John:
Sorry. My reading comprehension is well below par.
Nevermind.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 16, 2009 - 12:37am PT
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"John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed."
No, Oscar was not bashing the hunt for knowledge, or "knowing," rather the compulsion to try and supply "answers" to situations and experiences for which they are innapropriate as a means of inquiry.
JL
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 16, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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We all know that Dr. F is too smart for his own good!
A Christian is just a sinner who knows where to get forgiveness and wants to tell other sinners they can too!
All the religions of the world would go on without their founders, but without Jesus there is no Christianity!
God gave us moral free will, so we can make good and bad choices! Evil is lack of good. God can't lie, He said He made the world and said it was good! But if God made us without free will, could we really love Him back, if we could only do good and not sin?
Look at you kid or yourself with your parents, you/they don't want them to fall down, but you can't be with them at all times, and can't always rescue them. Then look at climbing the dangers are great, but look at how wonderful climbing is, it makes you stronger, it's worth it!
Doctors cause pain, that helps us or try's to. At the bed of a dying child an atheist can only say that's the way it goes? They have doubts and objections, about God and faith!
God is all good and can't tolerate evil and sin, so he sent His Son Jesus, to take on the sin of the world. Or, God in order to get rid of sin, He would have to get rid of the sinner. God would rather die then live without you! God is a God of intention, His suffering was for are good, salvation, and hope. Jesus said I have overcome the world. I will never leave or forsake you, no pit is so deep that the love of God is not deeper!
God gets it, look what happened to Him at the hands of evil men! We don't have a God that doesn't understand what we are going through! Sometimes there are no fix's, but God is with us, this is just temporary, God is in control, evil won't defeat us, all things work together for good, that love the lord! In heaven there will be no more tears, death, and suffering.
Which road will you take? God's offer of mercy won't last forever, He doesn't want us to live with evil, pain and suffering, but wants us to come to faith! He is a God of LOVE!
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 16, 2009 - 03:26am PT
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"The Catholic Church allows for belief in both cosmological and biological evolution. In both cases, Catholic dogma states that God put things in motion. "While the Church permits belief in either special [Biblical] creation or developmental [evolutionary] creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution." In other words, the Big Bang was caused by God, and that at some point man evolved to the point where God gave him an eternal soul."
"The Catholic Church is one branch of the Christian world that seems to allow a non-literal interpretation of the Bible."
Actually, a non-literal translation of scripture is allowed by a significant number of Christian sects and entities. Biblical fundementalists and many in the evangelical community insist on a strictly literal perception (of the bible) but many mainline protestants accept that some important doctrinal concepts may be written in metaphor.
Biblical literalists are often ignorant of the fact that the Torah was written in a Hebrew that had vocabulary of only a few hundred words. It had but two verb tenses (present perfect and imperfect). Concrete adjectives were used for abstract nouns. Conjuctions to connect or give relation to ideas were almost non-existent. Past action was given by the first in a series of verbs in the perfect tense followed by verbs in the imperfect. These devices, of syntax, were vague and resulted in ambiguity regarding time concepts.
Translating this ancient form of Hebrew into more precisely evolved language with many times the words, more categorial meanings and more flexible syntactic devices left much judgement to the translators.
The original Hebrew creation story (Genesis) does not actually say the world was created in six days. It uses the word yom which can mean several things including long indeterminate periods of time.
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