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middle joe
Trad climber
oc
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Nov 30, 2010 - 04:29pm PT
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This sure would make a better movie than 127 Hours...
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timdude2000
Sport climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Nov 30, 2010 - 11:29pm PT
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@ skipt. Just forget I am an attorney. I am just a dude that wants to know what happened. That is a very good point you make about my occupation, as most that are associated with it have, well to say the least not the greatest reputation for honesty. I do not have any motive but seeing a story told. I just came across this topic in a funny way. I would be happy to explain it to you. Also, dude, no offense taken. I threw some stuff out there and you called me on it. I would still like to hear what you have to think.
This thing has gotten long and drawn out over the years.
Why don't we start with 1, move to 2, and see where it goes. The folks that have been reading this forum know more about what appears most likely to be true, not me. I work for nobody but myself on this deal. I am an inquiring mind that's it. This subject is interesting to me from a story standpoint in some aspects I would like to share with those interested in hearinng. I will start with 1. can we get to 2? Easy stuff first.
1. The plane crashed on July 9, 2009.... debate or move on to number 2.
2. ???????????????
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sidmo
Sport climber
general delivery
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Licky, when it comes to the plane you may well be the most informed man on the planet - as your attorney friend believes - but until you stop assuming that anyone's reticence to offer up all the details you desire is some indication as to their story's veracity you will continue to compile subjective data that cannot be verified. So you may include erroneous information because you trust the source for some reason, and exclude relevant data because you have some problem with the source personally. Such subjectivity lends itself better to a fiction project, as a novel "based on a true story" might be a better vehicle for your book. You've misread some things but won't believe me if I elaborate, so I'll not bore you. But if you believe that you can write history while playing favorites and running a cliquish thread for your research, I'd have to say that such self-confidence is delusional and destructive. Go ahead, tell me to play in someone else's sandbox (or check Ebay prices on . . . lawn clippings, was it?) but juvenile wiscracks do not a well-researched history project make. You are certainly free to write as you like, but if this was an academic project, I can assure you that it would not likely pass the rigid requirements of creative non-fiction. As I said, it's a perfect vehicle for a novel and should be pursued as such. As a work of history however, you'd have a hard time with peer reviews in any academic environment.
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WBraun
climber
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sidmo
You really are an idiot.
He's writing the book his way whether you like it or not. Tough sh'it for you.
Go write your own fuking book if you don't like it.
Also Licky could give rats ass about any or your so called "peer" review.
Are you really that stupid?
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Sidmo said: "I can assure you that it would not likely pass the rigid requirements of creative non-fiction." What "rigid requirements of creative nonfiction"? There's only one: that the writer believes what she or she is writing to be true. That's it. One rule.
And for all you people complaining about Licky's time on the project: from what I can tell, ten years on a book, particularly a first book, is about average, so back off. It's interesting to have this semi-public view of Licky's research here on ST, but it creates a probably false sense that he's slacking. Most of the time we just see a finished product and have not one clue how long the project took. Let the man work!
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Licky
Mountain climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2010 - 03:41am PT
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Amazing how some get their 15 minutes of fame (Andy Warhol "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes.") Sidmo is working on his. He and Chainsaw are duking it out for Top Dog.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jM4hLwM4_ms
Thanks again WB and Dolomite for your support
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timdude2000
Sport climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Dec 12, 2010 - 03:18pm PT
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Look being new to this thread and being flamed at least a couple of times for my posts here and elsewhere, I would like to say that I appreciate EVERYBODY'S point of view. Sidmo is entitled to his opinion, but I do not know the story behind any beefs that have built up. I do believe that Mr. Schloss is a virtual encyclopedia on this topic. He has given presentations at Yosemite. However, I am not "his lawyer friend" (remember we are forgetting my occupation, LOL). Trust me I would way rather be on a trail than a courtroom.
I have received some good information on this subject. Who can give a conscise rundown of the events as they believed them to have happened? It's not easy. Mr. Schloss, whether the first to publish on this subject or does so in 5 years, will be the foremost thorough work; no question in my mind. I think it is a very interesting story. I do wonder whether there would be mass appeal for this topic. I do not like to spin my wheels.
Right now what I am looking for is anybody who XC skis in the Sierra. I know the conditions were very dry that winter. Did anybody xc ski that winter? or hear stories? Wasn't it an XC skier who found the wing first, January 77?
Sitmo hit me up on PM, I will listen to what you have to say. I think this thing should be kept civil. I understand sarcasm is human nature, but let's try to keep in mind that two very young men died in that crash. Think about that when making a post. This story has some diverging and flat out false information associated with it. The facts from what I have been able to gather are pretty much there. I need somebody that can help me take the reader to the high sierra on XC skies in a dry winter. I am not beyond strapping a pair on and learing first hand.
Take care all
Thanks for the input on this issue.
Disclaimer
My spelling sucks and I flee flow my rhymes.
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Licky
Mountain climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2010 - 12:30am PT
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Having been an avid alpine skier in the mid 70's I can recall listening to the weather reports about snow fall, or lack there of, in the Sierra. The snow was just about none existant.
Now lets skip forward to a particular story that I have been hunting down. Its about a couple of guys that managed to pay a visit to the lake with...are you sitting down? Snowmobiles. Ya see, here is another example of people that wished they were in the thick of things. Loading it so thick that now we have snow mobiles streaking over the sand dunes of the Mojave, or more to the point, screaming to the plane crash site.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 13, 2010 - 12:43am PT
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It should be possible to get snowfall, weather and snowpack measurements for the winter of 1977, from the various land management agencies. Maybe not for Upper Merced Lake, but perhaps for sites not far away. It was certainly a dry winter relative to normal measures, but if I remember rightly there were some storms in February and March.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Dec 13, 2010 - 12:59am PT
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For reference, the Tioga Road closed for the season on December 29, 1976 and opened for the summer on April 8, 1977; I think this is the shortest of all winter closures. This was the driest winter I can remember. It was cold, but it was snow-ice instead of snow. Skiing in Jan and Feb as okay, but booting it in from March on.
EDIT: there were no vehicles, snowmobile or otherwise, that made that 13 miles.
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east side underground
Trad climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:07am PT
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Back in '77 were sno- mo's good enough to make it back that far in the backcountry? My first sled was a '78 john deere. Fun but not what I would call a machine cable of real backcountry riding. Not like modern sleds. Maybe possible? Also, the john deere was one (maybe the first) liquid cooled machines, dry road riding with air cooled sleds can lead to disater quickly.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Dec 13, 2010 - 12:30pm PT
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Rox, NO 4-wheel ATV was commercially available in '77--crappy 3-wheelers from Honda was the only choice then (asides from motorcycles).
...and those Big Red Hondas were not too trail friendly:-)
It will be interesting to see what (if any) motorized vehicles made it up there...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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Rox, NO 4-wheel ATV was commercially available in '77--crappy 3-wheelers from Honda was the only choice then (asides from motorcycles).
Indeed. In James Bond's Diamonds are Forever (1971), they had those Honda ATC 90's chasing the moon buggy...
Edit: Here's a cool page I just found:
http://www.bob2000.com/atv2.htm
From the web page linked above:
Answer to the most-asked ATC90 question: Where to find balloon tires:
They don't exist.
There used to be a few on eBay, and the last set I sold went for nearly $1000. Keep your eyes on eBay, but be prepared to empty your wallet.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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Dec 13, 2010 - 01:16pm PT
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I was curious if my memory was correct--it was.
From wiki/all terrain vehicles:
Suzuki was a leader in the development of 4-wheeled ATVs. It sold the first ATV, the 1982 QuadRunner LT125, which was a recreational machine for beginners.
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timdude2000
Sport climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Dec 13, 2010 - 03:11pm PT
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I am sure 80 pounds of the lightning in a pack was sufficient. That was likely thought to be enough. To mount a mechanized operation to the site seems highly unlikely. More likely people went in more than once, and perfected the science somewhat, but keep in mind every trip in was one or two less bails in the lake. Probably had to work harder the longer you waited to get in.
Tim
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timdude2000
Sport climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Dec 18, 2010 - 01:19pm PT
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The 2010 book "It happened in Yosemite National Park" has a chapter devoted to the "the crash of the lodestar lightning". At best this chapter has a fair amount of misinformation regarding the crash. This leads me to question anything in the chapter, and also leads me to read the other chapters with a jaded perception. If you prove a couple of things wrong in a chapter, should you assume the whole book is tainted as well?
Peace
Tim
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 18, 2010 - 02:26pm PT
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Good points, Rok, although it was no more complex than any other twin radial such as the Beech 18.
No doubt you had to watch your manifold pressures and EGT closely but a single pilot could fly it.
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Licky
Mountain climber
California
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 19, 2010 - 03:43am PT
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Reilly...how different would a plane be if both 2500 hp engines screwed to the same direction? These people owned a Beech 18 and knew how to fly that also.
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timdude2000
Sport climber
Las Vegas, NV
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Dec 19, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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Thanks for the input Rok. It seems like the book "it happened in Yosemite" could have been slapped together pretty fast.
For what it is worth, I think Glisky and Nelson were stud pilots. I do not think that any pilot in their right mind would get into a plane that had any problems pre-takeoff. I have heard that the engines were leaking oil. Why would the pilots try to fly on potentially one engine. If the problem, as it sounds like, was with the airframe/structural reliabilty then a pilot would not get back on a plane that had a structural shudder as one could imagine a damaged airframe would have. The structural wing problem would be like driving a car with a flat tire from the start. The pilots, I bet, thought they had a completely healthy plane.
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