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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:15pm PT
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Leave her alone Fruit, just drop it .....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:19pm PT
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Hell no, you piss in our beer everyday. You should be ashamed of yourself.
On this board at least, and on these topics, you're no different from Trump... a man-child.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
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You really are insane.
feralfae has nothing to do with it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:33pm PT
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The Logic of Quantum Mechanics
"I want to begin by considering a case in which 'necessary' truths (or rather 'truths') turned out to be falsehoods: the case of Euclidean geometry. I then want to raise the question: could some of the 'necessary truths' of logic ever turn out to be false for empirical reasons? I shall argue that the answer to this question is in the affirmative, and that logic is, in a certain sense, a natural science."
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 19, 2017 - 10:57pm PT
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ff: What has been stated is that modern science could not exist without mathematics. I think that is a given. The elegance of being able to express relational physical reality through such simple terms as are readily understood by almost all physicists is a result of the continual development of mathematical applications to express theoretical propositions in measurable terms. Without these closely reasoned means of expressing these phenomenon, they could not be tested, refuted, verified or modified.
If anything, this would seem say that without metrics or measurements, there would be no science. if so, then that would seem to imply an inherent bias and limitation. If not, then the common conception of science around here in this thread needs to be expanded considerably. (I suppose there are other alternatives, but I can’t think of them at the moment.)
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 05:30am PT
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All this from a really kinda simple question....yes it does and data and history seem to back it up.
Religions are like tribes and what have tribes historical done?
Werner wrote: Leave her alone Fruit, just drop it .....
Funny coming from the little attack chihuahua, you might want ask Norton, Crankster and few others about being left alone on these forums.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 20, 2017 - 05:39am PT
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If atheists don't also have a tribe mentality then why do they seek an affirmation from others in regards to their beliefs?
If you are truly atheist you would not feel a need to act in such a way.
Nor would you spend so much time trying to convince others how right you are
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 05:57am PT
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"If atheists don't also have a tribe mentality then why do they seek an affirmation from others in regards to their beliefs? "
I don't care if you believe what I believe or not. Pretty simple. Happie asked a question and I think history shows what that answer is.
Also...this trend will continue. https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102002282
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:05am PT
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You sure seem to care. If your answer to the original post is a simple: yes.
Then why do you persist posting on this thread?
Personally it seems you are doing what many religious people do- you are seeking affirmation from others in order to satiate your inner need to belong to a group..
Much like any member of a tribe
If you are atheist- then this is a waste of what little time you have in this finite life...
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 06:28am PT
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"Personally it seems you are doing what many religious people do- you are seeking affirmation from others in order to satiate your inner need to belong to a group..'
I'm part of something called the natural world.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 20, 2017 - 10:03am PT
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Werner is at least partly correct in saying that we trained the Taliban, during their fight with the Russians, but they weren't the Taliban yet. They didn't behead Walt when he snuck in to film them.
We have killed hundreds of thousands of civilians in the Iraq and Afghan wars. If somebody killed my family, I would be damn tempted to take up arms against them.
Where we screw up is nation building. We've more than gotten even over 9-11 now. We screwed up Iraq, and lost the good will of the people that existed right after we knocked off Saddam. Firing the army, banning the Baath party. Those were two critical errors, along with giving the Shia power, that ended up turning into ISIS.
When we screw around with a country, there can be unintended consequences.
How we screwed up Iraq is classic. There was a good documentary on CNN the other evening that discussed it all.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 10:11am PT
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"There are lovely things in the world, lovely that don't endure, and the lovelier for that."
Can't wait for science to tell me why.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 10:57am PT
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Paul...botany would be a good start.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 11:13am PT
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you don't need to do some mystical speculations to figure out why things are lovely
just like some things taste good, some things don't
humans HAVE Preferences for things they see
like a bee looking for a flower, the bee prefers flowers with nectar
if you had these flower color patterns pasted all over the sides of your walls, you would probably start to hate them, it's just too overwhelming
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 11:28am PT
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if you had these flower color patterns pasted all over the sides of your walls, you would probably start to hate them, it's just too overwhelming
Is my statement that those flowers are ugly equally valid to the statement that they are beautiful?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 11:43am PT
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Paul... does it matter?
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 20, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
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Paul... does it matter?
Yes. What is beauty anyway? How do we explain it without recognizing the exceptional nature of humanity with its desire to know and as well, the strange delight we take in our senses, a delight that's extraneous to the survival dictates of evolution and something we also take delight in growing and encouraging. The question is why do humans have preferences for the things they see and why is there such enjoyment in the perception of those things? It is philosophy and myth and religion that bring us closer to any understanding of questions like this, questions that science seems incapable of answering.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jun 20, 2017 - 02:17pm PT
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Should have been clearer, does it matter what you think or what I think personally about it?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 20, 2017 - 02:42pm PT
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It is philosophy and myth and religion that bring us closer to any understanding of questions like this, questions that science seems incapable of answering. I completely disagree
You could have never read a myth or have any type of religion
and you will have the same sense of Beauty as all other humans
and it can be explained by science, not explained by philosophy and myth and religion, since if it could, it would have.
I already gave to scientific explanation,
here is a little more detail
preferences before we were human may have aided in survival, and through evolution forces we Perceive Beauty
Can you say a dog does or does not perceive beauty?
I say yes, they can
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Jun 20, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
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"There are lovely things in the world, lovely that don't endure, and the lovelier for that."
Can't wait for science to tell me why.
Seriously? Science isn't making strides in understanding how and why humans believe what we believe? And you've already proven to yourself that science is incapable of explaining why we make up beliefs about how and why things are beautiful, but myth and philosophy and making up beliefs about why we make up beliefs about beauty brings us closer to understanding the truth of reality as it actually exists?
You seem to believe that things are actually lovely, and that their ephemeral nature (hey, we're ephemeral too!) makes them lovelier still, and that those things are aspects of reality, rather than aspects of our beliefs about reality.
It reminds me of a friend who posted on Facebook after the gay marriage ruling (when everyone was covering their photos with the rainbow hue) that everyone looked happier and healthier covered by the rainbow hue. Of course no-one's health or happiness changed as a result of their photo being covered by the rainbow hue, but our beliefs about their health and happiness did.
But you've already proven to yourself that there's no evolutionarily advantageous reason why people who share our beliefs might look lovelier to us? Their increased happiness and healthiness is just a fact of reality to you - a fact that we awesome humans are perceptive enough to actually see when looking at the photo, and not just something we make up in our heads as a belief?
Ok.
The fact that you "can't wait for science to tell me why" - huh, what's that about? My sense is that we need to believe that what we believe right now based on our incomplete information is true, really it's true!, and we can't be bothered to wait around for science to help us understand why. We need to believe that we're right right now.
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