Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 12:51am PT
|
Lotta fake posters here. You have to wonder why.
What conditions created the disparity today? What do you do to fix that?
Massive tax cuts for the rich resulting in shifting of the tax burden to the middle class.
The rich have used the extra money to buy up the resources of the country, resulting in a major shift of the material wealth of the USA from the middle class to the few.
Fix it through tax policy resulting in a shift BACK to a broader base of wealth ownership.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 12:59am PT
|
How do you write tax laws to get those who have a monopoly on those resources to give it up?
How do you motivate others to take the responsibility of managing these resources?
Or do you leave it to the government to manage?
How are you going to do this in today's economy where the population would much rather sell Yosemite to China to pay what we owe to China?
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:02am PT
|
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:09am PT
|
What do these occupy people think they are accomplishing? I haven't read anything about that.
I mean, what are the mechanics of change with them? Does the group have anyone who knows how things work, or a politician that can tell them that in fact the changes they forced by camping out are the changes that will effect the change they want?
I don't get it. Even if they rotate people through the government, isn't the thing they are protesting deeper than that?
It isn't as simple as picking up the pitchfork and torch anymore, but it seems like the 99% are acting like it is.
|
|
Port
Trad climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:14am PT
|
Wait, isn't that just a typically day in downtown Olympia WA?
|
|
Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:20am PT
|
I guess so, as they are setting up for long/permanent stay. Show us a pic from San Diego of the police action there Friday. Couldn't find one on the net. . . .
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:22am PT
|
Tooth.. the movement has no leadership. Its just expressed frustration at this point. Who knows if it will peter out or gain momentum. Lots of movements in history started unorganized and without a clear message.
If they are to grow, then their message will have to become clearer.
|
|
Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:23am PT
|
Tooth, perhaps they just want to be seen and heard. Just maybe something will give. But I doubt it. Those in power will never release it.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:38am PT
|
It is fair, but in order to give the government as much as they get right now the majority of people couldn't live on a flat tax anymore. It wouldn't work.
Either there would have to be fewer taxes collected or people would have to make more and live on less.
But you are right. It is fair. Just not possible at this point.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:39am PT
|
Nope,, its more harmful the poorer you become. Try it some time. Find out just how much the bare minimum is to live on, Then add a 10 percent tax to it.
When you are poor, the financial decisions become more profound.
A wealthy person doesn't need to work 10 percent harder to feed and clothe himself. A poor person just might have to depending on how close they are to abject poverty.
A flat tax affects a person less and less the farther they get away from poverty, even though they are paying a greater amount of money.
A flat tax is regressive.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:45am PT
|
Which decisions are harder? Feed my kids, or put a roof over their heads, or get medical care when you are living at the poverty level.
Versus, which luxury car do I buy and where do I go on vacation, when you are wealthy.
The difference in those decisions is what makes a flat tax regressive.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 01:47am PT
|
Bloated spending? How about two wars given to us by the repubs? How about the biggest military budget in history?
I guess we could do without clean air and clean water.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:03am PT
|
There is and always will be people living at and below a line.
There is and always will be tax deductions that basically allow for no tax to be paid on the first money you owe to that point.
Right now 49% of Americans pay no Income tax anyway. So changing a tax style that is graduated to say 10% across the board will not affect them.
I lived in the US, and paid from nothing to a lot in taxes each year there. Now I pay there and in Canada.
In Canada I found the ticket to accumulating wealth and not getting taxed on it. Incorporating. Unfortunately, in the US it isn't recognized as say a LLC, so I get taxed on what I make in Canada in the US, since a tax shelter in Canada doesn't get recognized in the US and an US tax shelter doesn't get recognized in Canada. The same with student loans. I have to make an extra $70k a year to pay for taxes since I want to pay my loans off in less than 30 years and Canada doesn't give me tax breaks on them like the US would if they were Fed loans. Which they aren't, so I don't get it in the US either.
I live on less than what I pay in taxes after education payments. And will for more than the next decade.
I truly think the answer you are looking for is in how you can use corporations to move money and to influence the tax rules. It has less to do with personal taxes, flat or graduated.
And don't end up paying taxes in 2 countries at once!
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:05am PT
|
Nope.. I shouldn't need a graph. It is simple math and simple logic.
You just have to understand how difficult it is to pay the bills when you are poor.
10 percent of someones wages when they are fighting to pay the bills every month is much more difficult then even 50 percent of someone making 100 million dollars a year. If you can't live on 50 million dollars a year, then you are doing something wrong. Sure, you might think you need that much, but you can cloth and feed yourself and your family, plus put a roof over their heads and get them the best medical care. It really is that simple.
My only point is that a flat tax is regressive, and is thus not truly fair.
Certainly a flat tax could be less difficult then a progressive tax if the progressive tax jumps up quickly and does it before one gets out of poverty. But that isnt' the point. The point is that a flat tax is regressive, and thus not truly fair.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:09am PT
|
Right now 49% of Americans pay no Income tax anyway. So changing a tax style that is graduated to say 10% across the board will not affect them.
Not true. Everyone who earns money pays a tax on their income. Mostly in the form of social security and medicare taxes, but those are taxes on income. Some on the right are trying to do away with social security and medicare. Maybe not all of them, but enough to give the system problems.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:13am PT
|
John,
I have found that the more I make, the more it is because I'm putting my butt on the line to create business/jobs/etc. and bring people along with me.
Taxing 50% of that would cripple my income that I'm using to develop my business. I only live on the same amount that I did when I was climbing at Josh 3 days a week, but now I climb only once a month, and work the rest of the time. If I had taxes that high I would quit growing, lay off a few people and still be canning food for the winter etc.
I don't know where the line is where people no longer have to reinvest their money, but In California everyone drove BMW's and it shocked me. They all lived in crummy apartments. In BC nobody drives them unless they live in a huge house. So I guess everything is priorities.
Edit:
The % of Income tax in the US doesn't include SS and Medicare. Those are capped for people anyway, it doesn't increase all the way up as income increases. It is a different calculation as Income Tax and is taxed differently.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:19am PT
|
The income tax isn't on a difficulty scale as you repeat in your arguments. It isn't designed to make life equally difficult for everyone. So you can't judge it's fairness based on resultant difficulty.
If it was, nobody would ever make more than 50k a year take home and in fact, everyone would end up with that after rebates. That would be fair.
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:20am PT
|
Tooth, I only used that figure to show that a flat tax is regressive. A progressive tax can also be burdensome if the amounts are out of whack, but doing a flat tax isn't more fair then a progressive tax.
A flat tax is more difficult for the poor. The people who can least handle more difficulty.
If you want to argue that our regulations and requirements for small businesses are out of whack, then you wont get an argument from me. I agree that they are. Prop 13 in california is just once example, which favors businesses that have been in place for years. Handicap parking is another crazy example.
But saying that a flat tax is more fair is just plain wrong. A flat tax is regressive by nature.
You also wont get an argument from me about the complexity of our tax codes. Especially concerning businesses. It has gotten crazy.
|
|
tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:25am PT
|
So then sales taxes are wrong? Or since they pay for different things compared to income tax it is alright?
What are taxes for? What makes some special, or eligible for flat taxes while it is wrong for other taxes to be flat? The use of that tax?
It is wrong to pay for military with a flat tax, but ok to pay for roads with a flat tax?
|
|
John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
|
|
|
Oct 17, 2011 - 02:32am PT
|
Yes.. sales taxes are regressive. If they weren't, then why do we exempt food?
And I didn't say that they were wrong. I said that they are regressive. You said that flat taxes were fair. I just pointed out how they weren't.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!