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WBraun
climber
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"They arent lying. They are just mistaken."
That's what sheeple say.
That's what cattle say.
As they happily eat their grass in front of the slaughterhouse ......
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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The photos should have been released promptly. Not as a “spike the ball” move but to bring closure to this event. Our President needs to recognize that we are a Democratic Republic, not an autocracy where he can simply issue a statement which makes things so. So now the administration is struggling to spin each subsequent conflicting statement they make and are losing control of the dialog.
And then our “We don’t spike the ball” President is in New York doing exactly that, a victory lap at Ground Zero. Aren’t these the same New Yorkers down whose throats he tried to cram the civil trial of KSM? He lost that one and I expect he’ll lose on the photos in the end too. Sooner or later they’ll come out.
I’m okay with the killing of Bin Laden, but let’s recognize that it was done using policies developed by previous administrations including the Seal Team which works directly for The President (you know, that Bush/Cheney assassination squad.) And I respect Obama for making the call, but realistically by the time he was told that we knew where Bin Laden was there were a lot of CIA analysts and military folks who knew, and who would have been extremely pissed if nothing was done, so he really had no choice. The news that we had located Bin Laden and the administration chose not to act would have been leaked before the 2012 election.
I’m really not okay with classifying the photos and disposing of the body/evidence as soon as possible. These actions raise questions and make closure and moving on next to impossible. And so the smart choice to go in with a ground assault team, so the results could be verified, may well end up with us losing face and credibility and further destabilizing the Afghan – Pakistani region.
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jstan
climber
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LG:
I don't believe I have made any statements about 72 virgins. I think I would remember that.
To what are you referring?
Ksolem:
"So now the administration is struggling to spin each subsequent conflicting statement they make and are losing control of the dialog."
1. Can you give me any instance where the administration, or anyone else for that matter, has been able to "control the dialog"? If you cannot then you are in the position of faulting someone for failing to do something that can, in practical terms, be described as impossible.
2. If the administration had made no information available or even postponing the release, it would have, rightfully, been accused of performing secret acts.
3. When a person loses his rappel and is killed right in front of another person how can there be an extended angry debate? But we just did that.
4. How would have handled a military incursion involving many military personnel on a mission that was going to involve many indeterminacies, in such a way that there would be certainty.
From all that I read it seems Bin Laden has for some time been out of the loop as regards day to day al qaeda operations. With the search for him going on, this would be expected. If that is the case and people in the US were interested only in our influencing those day to day military operations, Bin Laden would have been irrelevant. He might have just been left alone.
If we go with that picture for a moment, how would Obama have been received had he come out and said we would leave him alone for these reasons. Taking him out will assuredly have negative military and diplomatic consequences.
How would you have reacted?
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Gene
climber
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Nice post, Ksolem
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Gene
climber
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Does a foreign citizen have the right to not have their corpse put on display or used for advertising or political purposes?
Ask this guy.
Or this US citizen.
41 years ago yesterday
Or the WTC jumpers.
etc., etc., etc.
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jstan
climber
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LG:
Here are the first two sentences:
"I was not able to find a question. All pretty much assertions. The last line merits a response.
According to the dictionary you are correct, lies are intentional."
Nothing in there about 72 virgins or faith for that matter.
Thanks for the exchange. It has been an eye opener.
Edit:
Oh. Now I see there was a later post. I'll take a look at it.
Edit 2:
I went on at length how one can use data to reveal bias. When the data does not support your conclusion you know you have to look for the source for your opinion.
You then asked how to escape bias.
We have a comprehension problem.
I can't help you.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kris wrote: And then our “We don’t spike the ball” President is in New York doing exactly that, a victory lap at Ground Zero. Aren’t these the same New Yorkers down whose throats he tried to cram the civil trial of KSM? He lost that one and I expect he’ll lose on the photos in the end too. Sooner or later they’ll come out.
You sound like Glenn Beck. In fact that is what Glenn Beck said on his show last night.
If you watched the families and first responders today they were honor to have the president there. No victory lap, no speech.
It is the old 'man in the arena" syndrome.
Carry on...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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I only have one thing to add to what Kris said.
There should have been absolutely no news at all until all the intelligence gathered (hard drives etc.) had been gone through and exploited as far as practical.
We got really good at this in Iraq. Popping one AQ leader and within 48 hrs getting several more from documents and hard drives captured with him.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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wow, i guess i shouldn't be surprised by these threads and probably shouldn't ever post in them.
a couple of obvious points:
first, the initial decision not to release photos was endorsed by the republicans most involved in security issues (i.e., including john mccain).
second, neither i nor anyone else in this thread has the info or competence to judge whether in fact releasing the photos would have heightened security risks (esp. for us operatives still embedded in pakistan), but if the wh had released the photos, they would've been criticized for doing so by the same leading voices on the rep rump now demanding release.
third, any released photos would be getting denounced as fakes on this thread, the radio, and eventually, on tv by the rep rump
fourth, in terms of domestic politics, it's probably wise to not release the photos, let palin and other gamblers keep pushing the envelope until they are publicly making the sorts of claims we're seeing on this thread (conspiracy, fake, etc.), then bring in the navy seals for a photo-op to underline the point: the conspiracy folks are calling the navy seal war heroes liars.
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jstan
climber
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/05/us-markets-oil-idUSTRE7446BH20110505?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews
(Reuters) - Oil plunged more than 8 percent on Thursday, heading for the third biggest daily drop in dollar terms on record, as concerns about economic growth and monetary tightening spurred a sell-off in commodities.
U.S. crude tumbled below $100 a barrel in heavy trading volume after weak economic data from Europe and the United States fed concerns that have battered commodities all week. German industrial orders fell unexpectedly in March while U.S. weekly jobless claims hit eight-month highs.
World stocks fell and the 19-commodity Reuters-Jefferies CRB index swooned more than 4.5 percent, heading for its biggest weekly decline since December 2008.
"The longer-term bull cycle is still in place, but this correction may have a life span of several months, as weaker economic data is fueling this correction to a large part," said Sterling Smith, senior analyst for Country Hedging Inc in Minnesota……………….
………Selling pressure on oil and other commodities came on several fronts this week, with investors weighing factors from the death of Osama bin Laden to the impact of higher fuel and commodity costs on the economies of consumer nations to monetary policy in major economies.
"Crude oil is selling off sharply for two primary reasons: QE2 is coming to an end in June and without a QE3 behind it, it will take liquidity out of the market, hurting risky asset classes such as commodities," said Chris Jarvis, senior analyst, Caprock Risk Management in New Hampshire.
"With Osama bin Laden dead, the market is adjusting the geopolitical risk premium down accordingly. Given this, speculative money is being taking off the table."
India's central bank raised rates more than expected on Tuesday, and expectations No. 2 oil consumer China could take similar actions helped push down prices on Wednesday.
End Quote
I bolded something I don’t follow. Commodity shifts are sensitive to interest rates as they have implications as to GDP going forward. Don’t need so many commodities if production is off.
To explain how Bin Ladden forces money off the table you have to say his death has increased uncertainty not decreased it. Speculators run from uncertainties they did not expect. Commodities have been driven to speculative levels, IMO, based upon the supposed recovery.
The world and the people in it are doing just what they have been doing for some time now. Where is the surprise?
Edit:
Actually Kerwin you should post more. An occasional exposure to reasoned thought is a great change. Gets boring O/W.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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a victory lap
Yeah, that's the right wing talking point, they've all been using it today.
If this mission had crashed and burned, would anybody be mentioning W?
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Bob D: You sound like Glenn Beck. In fact that is what Glenn Beck said on his show last night.
I wouldn't know about that. I don't listen to that nutjob if I can possibly avoid it.
If the Ground Zero appearance is becoming a right wing talking point that is because of the obvious contradiction of it all.
Jstan, obviously no administration can totally control the dialogue on anything. The goal would be to maintain enough control to remain credible. My point is just that the Obama administration by concealing the photos, disposing of the body, and having to admit to one "we were mistaken" after another is at risk of losing credibility.
What would I have done you ask? My style would be to announce the success of the raid, praise the military and other personnel involved, make a concise statement defending the legality of it and release a photo of the body. I would then have offerred to deliver the remains to the Bin Laden family who survive him. I would direct my administration to make no statements regarding a Presidential role in the mission. That should be left unsaid. And no public appearances.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Kris wrote: If the Ground Zero appearance is becoming a right wing talking point that is because of the obvious contradiction of it all.
Who's contradiction???
Lay a wreath, no speech and visited with families and first responders of 9/11.
So were did you come up with the "victory lap"..not Glenn but Rush???
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Does anyone else remember how, at the start of the invasion, the Bush Administration very publicly threatened war crimes charges if the Iraquis released pictures of dead American soldiers?
Does anyone else remember how Bush refused to allow even pictures of flag-draped coffins containing American soldiers to be published?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Hawkeye, in the Bible just proceeding the 10 commandments it noted
that some not all acts of adultery are punishable by death upon either
1 or both and the person who takes their life is not guilty of murder.
huh? thanks but i am unsure of why i care. the bible has less to do with all of this than the Koran....
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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He stood there and TOOK RESPONSIBILITY, not credit. He gave credit where it was due.
good point DMT.
i am fine with no photograph and the burial at seza thing is brilliant. why? because if preventing some zealots from getting inspiration either from pictures or visiting an OBL shrine saves one life its worth it.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Your last admin completely lacked the stones...
"My" last administration? Far from it. Don't paint me as a Bushbot just because I criticize our current President sometimes.
My complaint regarding administration remarks about the Presidents role had nothing to do with remaks made by the President himself. His spokespeople were flapping their tongues.
Sorry Bob, I don't listen to Rush much either. I'm more of a Brian Suits / Bill Carroll type.
Gotta go now. Cheers everyone.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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First you tell people what you want them to believe. It's on Page One and they have their emotional reaction.
Then you say you were mistaken and tell more of the truth. It's on page 4 and the reaction has already happened. They've done studies on this. Sometimes people cling to story one after it's already been debunked.
karl, funny thing is that you could also be accused of obfuscation by not believeing anything about anything.
people will learn much more about the facts not by what "fact" is reported in the news, but by the process and message evolution and positions taken. that will point to the real life behind the scenes happenings. human nature is varied, personal agendas different, and nobody is a machine designed to spew facts out in front of them but in this day and age this seems to be what most people expect.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Nope
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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mono - some people are freaking perfectionists. unless you have your modern day conspiracy approved by the supreme court it doesnt fly. i take that back, those guys/gals in robes can also be bought off....
edit, mono deleted his post pretty fast.
edit2 - Our only option was kill him and let the Amerikans rejoice.
that works for me.
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