Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 07:35pm PT
|
I have a friend who is a modern day Quaker.
Out of curiosity, I once asked him whatever happened to
the Shakers. He said they were an offshoot of the Quakers
that believed in very limited physical contact between the sexes.
Husbands and wives slept in separate rooms, and attempted
sex only to produce children. The Shakers died out quickly
because their natural death rate was higher than their birth rate.
The Shakers, it is said, literally shook while praying.
My friend is a highly regarded Doctor, a true man of science,
who is also a deeply devout Christian. He, like many people,
see no conflict between believing in god and at the same time, evolution.
He does not believe that evolution was "made up" to discredit creationism.
He believes completely in Darwinian evolution, and that god gave
humans a soul at some point in their evolution. When, he does not care.
|
|
Gene
Social climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 07:42pm PT
|
Thanks, Cragman.
Post of the day. LOL.
Sorry, Locker.
Best to both of you,
gm
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 07:45pm PT
|
There is never a need to "believe" in anything.
"Believing" is a dead end as it has no logical extension. It leads nowhere.
I "think" the concept of parsimony has been exceedingly useful over the last several millennia.
In common usage the word "believe" has been co-opted in the religious context.
It means thinking something to be true despite the absence of confirming data.
"Think", at least so far, implies freedom of choice on the part of the person.
From webster's 9th:relevant excerpts:
Believe: 1a. To have a firm religious faith, 1b; to accept faithfully and on faith 2. to have a firm conviction as to the reality or goodness of something.
3. To hold an opinion
Meaning 3 has been subjugated in popular usage.
Think: To consider to be true or honest; to hold an opinion
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 07:55pm PT
|
The Bible says don't add to it or take away from it!
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 07:56pm PT
|
As so many are clear it is all about trying to get you to reject your faith.
An ass-backwards characterization; like saying those who are pro-choice are trying to get more abortions.
It's not about rejecting faith, it's about embracing rigorous rationality.
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
|
It is about use of language in a way that supports good function in society.
I will note here that those who count "faith" and proper treatment of their fellows to be their strong suit, are the most ready to cast aspersions on the quality. integrity, and intelligence of those with whom they disagree.
If I understand what Jesus said and if I 'believed" we all would one day stand in judgment, I would be very worried had I a history of acting in this way.
It is good that this is so. For so long as this behavior continues we will never forget that people of this conviction were once pleased to cause their fellows to be burned alive at the stake.
We have all the data needed to convince us nothing has changed.
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 08:07pm PT
|
Why so snippy skippy?
I've never had faith in your (or my) rationality skip; I try to maintain a healthy skepticism.
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:06pm PT
|
That's just Bananas!
|
|
WandaFuca
Social climber
From the gettin' place
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:20pm PT
|
It's monkey business!
(edit) thanks, single-stone.
|
|
monolith
climber
Berkeley, CA
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 09:23pm PT
|
I like your style Wanda!
|
|
Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 10:03pm PT
|
Cool, I trim trees!!!
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 10:17pm PT
|
jstan, if you can just be patient and bear with me....I have serious close friend health issues going on here.....and jstan
I appreciate all you have posted and want to comment, but I want to try and give you a good thoughtful response.
EDIT: Three issues I want to address....I'll begin with the last. BELIEVING.... I believe my husband is coming home tonight. I believe my child will make it home from school. I believe my best friend will always be just that....my best friend.
To me believing is a gut feeling that it will happen. Believing.....vs. Faith.
In the Websters....Belief is an opinion or conviction
In the Websters...Faith is confidence/trust
So I do not believe in my friend jesus....I have faith in him for lynnies life.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 11:53pm PT
|
Wrote Oscar Hammerstein:
Who can understand it?
Who can tell you why?
Fools give you answers-
Wise me never try.
Problem is, it's sometimes fun and stimulating to try and provide "answers" and to be "right." But push this too far and I can be a "fool" every time.
JL
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 15, 2009 - 11:54pm PT
|
There's no rush Lynnie. Just take it easy. Tomorrow we are off on an adventure.
Hooblie and I are taking a step into the future. He is coming North by bus and I am going south by bus(Coastal Express) to Ventura with our bicycles. Then we will bicycle around Ventura stopping every few minutes to slander everybody and everything most viciously. I don't have an iPhone so there will be no texting. If anyone sees a blue cloud over Ventura, not to worry.
Some day it would be nice to put on my touron hat and bicycle around Europe, but not tomorrow.
Catch you later.
PS:
Read your post. That's cool.
I "think" a lot of our problems are made worse because we are not careful enough in how we use words.
I think you have got it.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:07am PT
|
Yo, Peace to you jstan....and have a super great time. I Be brain searching to put a good cause/correlary when you return. Have Fun and be Safe....but mostly HAVE FUN. Smiles, lynnie
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:09am PT
|
John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed.
Man's efforts to understand go back to the time we needed to know where the wildebeasts would be pasturing and when the big cats would be out there hunting them( and us). The individual who did not try to figure that out was a fool. A short lived/hungry one.
Now it is all we can do to set the clocks on our TiVo.
|
|
Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:18am PT
|
OMG, I am becoming a jstan ......friend, consensus person. Largo, our life is large here due to dudes like jstan.
It all started at Camp 4. Yikes.....:DD lynnie
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:22am PT
|
I made that up about Anders. But it is a good line.
"Lynnie, I wouldn't do that were I you."
What Lynnie has to offer is more important.
Edit:
John:
Sorry. My reading comprehension is well below par.
Nevermind.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Oct 16, 2009 - 12:37am PT
|
"John I suspect Hammerstein was mostly interested in how the words rhymed."
No, Oscar was not bashing the hunt for knowledge, or "knowing," rather the compulsion to try and supply "answers" to situations and experiences for which they are innapropriate as a means of inquiry.
JL
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!