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cintune
climber
Bruce Berry's Econoline Van
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Dec 13, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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Google is.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 09:04am PT
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(You guys kill me.)
You write as though there really are intentions, that means of control are available to a person, and that human beings have autonomy. Yet you do so within a worldview that says that there is cause-and-effect.
Ed says you can think about such things deeply, or you can just take them at face value.
MH2 says that “you” is just a mental construction.
“No problem.” :-)
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 14, 2015 - 01:17pm PT
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Ed H says "the perception of "I" and of "free will" are excellent approximations that explain behavior, and those perceptual models are valuable for our social interactions.
there is nothing at all mysterious about these perceptual models, the exist on all levels of animal behavior and span the range of "complexity" in all life."
So what about the perception of "No I". Buddhist ideas on this generally say you need to perceive (ie experience) "no I " to get correct perspective on "I". Otherwise you are just talking about climbing and have never climbed. The recommended tool to perceive "no I" is lots of meditation. "no I" is before thinking mind before model making mind or concept mind. Before explanation. So to have a broader view of what "I" is you need to experience "no I".
The only reason buddhist's are interested in what "I" is ; is because per Buddhist doctrine our attachment to "I" (feeling "I" is separate from everything else) is the root of all our suffering.
Unfortunately believing that will be of very little help with suffering you need to perceive (experience) it to be able to act truly compassionate.
Any practice that gets us to look at our selfishness will work; but it takes a rigorous practice for most people to get past themselves.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 14, 2015 - 01:20pm PT
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Along the lines of "who is asking . . .": When one talks to one's self who is communicating with whom? Is the artifice "I" constructing its own "I"? Is there a possibility this new "I" could displace the original?
Intrapersonal communication
How does Zen interpret internal dialogue like this?
The internet is all over the place on this subject, ranging from a gateway to schizophrenia to a constructive process for understanding.
When I dabble in mathematics it seems to help enormously to explain and argue with myself. Am I doomed?
Just curious.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 14, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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JG says "Along the lines of "who is asking . . .": When one talks to one's self who is communicating with whom? Is the artifice "I" constructing its own "I"? Is there a possibility this new "I" could displace the original?
Intrapersonal communication
How does Zen interpret internal dialogue like this?"
Zen looks at it as just thinking, just another variation of internal dialog. If you become obsessed with it or if you can't let it go it is called attachment mind. So when you sit for more than several minutes like maybe 20 plus minutes you will find you think about myriads of things. The practice is to recognize when you have become lost in your internal dialog (both mental and physical) and then let the story go about "I" replacing "I" with "I". And come back to the moment which is what you hear see and touch. Then you will drift off again and come back and over and over again. You find that you have very little control over your thoughts we move from one day dream to the next. Zen sitting is with eyes open.
the Korean style I practice says to pay attention to a spot an inch or two below the belly button when you breath and breath into that spot (your belly expands) ; it is diaphragmatic breathing;. When you do this it moves the attention into the body and away from the internal dialog; you will eventually feel something in you belly (some people say you feel energy but Ed will question that) Most Asians call it chi. Once you start to feel this chi it becomes much easier for the internal dialog to fall away or to not be attached to the internal dialog.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
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Jgill: Intrapersonal communication
It’s all just thoughts, John, like PSP says. Take none of it concretely or seriously. :-)
You can follow a practice called the “3-Point Purity.” In everything you do, follow: (i) no big deal about the doer; (ii) no big deal about the action; and (iii) no big deal about the results. Just joyous exertion.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
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PPSP said: "To go from a dualistic experience to a non-dualistic experience is mind blowing and it is not philosophy."
Bottom line. And this experience is not an idea, a concept or a perspective because there is no "I" viewing and evaluating content "out there" or "in here."
The greatest Christmas gift anyone could ever get is to spend even one second in the "unborn and uncreated."
No references included. Would you believe them is they were?
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 09:44pm PT
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Otherwise you are just talking about climbing and have never climbed.
what if I climbed and never talked about it...
how would you know?
and I'm just not at all clear on "the root of all our [my] suffering"?
what am I suffering of? I'm not in any real sense of the word "suffering" and certainly not in the context of the Indian subcontinent 6,000 years ago...
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 10:28pm PT
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Ed: what am I suffering of? I'm not in any real sense of the word "suffering" and certainly not in the context of the Indian subcontinent 6,000 years ago...
Well, Ed. . . ,
. . . we’re all modern men and women, and we (especially in this country) are all affected by the fragmentations of modernity. Even you. Every one suffers of or from something. (If not, lead on Macbeth.)
I can’t remember who is was, maybe Wittgenstein or Baudrillard, but someone said that one can never (rarely?) come to understand their own time or culture. We are all in the soup, trying to make sense of "WTF is happening?". That alone gives rise to much suffering. Culture shifts, technology, scientific studies, globalization, formation and diffusion of new values, shifts among different value systems, etc. are pulling the rugs from under our feet. Unless you just love not really knowing, it’s likely that there is some consternation in your life.
What “lots of suffering” is may be in need of construct building and operationalization, but it might be a fair assessment that many people in the world (of which you are one) are not entirely happy. Viola.
What might be a root? There are many theories and options.
In any event, "happiness" may be an important topic for discussion.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
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consternation is not suffering...
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 14, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
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MikeL i think there are many americans who can't understand suffering.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 10:46pm PT
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Ed:
Let’s not quibble over definitions. I’ll use the sanskrit definition: “dissatisfaction.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 14, 2015 - 11:32pm PT
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I don't need a major philosophy to address my "dissatisfactions"
("I can't get no...")
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 15, 2015 - 12:22am PT
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But I try!
And I try!
And I try, tr,tr,tr,try,!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2015 - 10:31am PT
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Ed has no complaints.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2015 - 10:40am PT
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suffering ; wanting things to be different than they are or wanting things not to change. What is wanting?
Demanding a hamburger at the hot dog stand and not taking no for an answer.
"I" is always attached to suffering. No "I" no suffering.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 15, 2015 - 10:45am PT
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http://scienceandnonduality.com/?post_type=post&p=91385
This must have been posted here already, but just in case: science answers, finally, the question of what is consciousness... so similar to the discussion here with perhaps a bit more politeness and clarity.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 15, 2015 - 02:04pm PT
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"Ed has no complaints."
...
"suffering ; wanting things to be different than they are or wanting things not to change. What is wanting? "
I have complaints, I want things to be the way I want them to be, for sure... but I can deal with it... it's not "suffering," or at least it is suffering in a very very minor way.
For my complaints and desires, the "remedy" is much simpler than undergoing a Buddhist transformation, though that would probably address them too...
but it is taking a sledge hammer to drive a finishing nail...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 15, 2015 - 03:53pm PT
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"I" is always attached to suffering. No "I" no suffering
The word "suffering" covers too great a spectrum of meaning. For example, there is emotional suffering and suffering caused by physical pain. The suffering inherent in emotional attachments may well fall into your pronouncement. However, physical pain is another matter, or at least requires a truly advanced level of meditative training. Last month I experienced spasms of pain so severe that, in the ER, a shot of morphine and pain pills didn't touch them.
Later, I remembered those monks who quietly immolated themselves, apparently beyond mortal pain. I would wager that those here who have spent years in Zen might well remove their "I" in very taxing emotional conditions, and some might deal with moderate pain more successfully than the untrained, but really severe pain may be another matter. What say you?
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Dec 15, 2015 - 05:27pm PT
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JG says "suffering caused by physical pain".
The suffering isn't caused by the pain it is the reaction to the pain.
You won't get rid of the pain but you can react differently to the pain.
Jon Kabat-Zinn initiated a program using meditation techniques to work with chronic pain . I think it has been adapted in many hospitals. here is a cut and paste about it.
Back in 1979, a biologist at the University of Massachusetts named Jon Kabat-Zinn had an idea. He was trained in the Vipassana tradition of Buddhist meditation, and he had a hunch that if he pared-down the technique, it could help patients at the university's medical center.
"The idea was to actually... train these medical patients in Buddhist meditative practices, but without the Buddhism," says Kabat-Zinn.
The idea of mind-body health wasn't well explored at the time, so Kabat-Zinn approached physicians and pain specialists at the university. He asked them to refer their patients to his new clinic, which happened to be set up in a windowless, underground office in a medical building.
"I wasn't objecting," says Kabat-Zinn. "Even with no air and no light and my wife saying, 'How can you work in these conditions?'" it didn't deter patients from seeking out the mindfulness training, either."
Stripped-Down Mindfulness
"The heart of Buddhist meditation is actually called mindfulness, and our operational definition of it is really paying attention in the only moment we're ever alive — which is the present moment," Kabat-Zinn says.
This can be tough for people living with pain. After all, who wants to be "in the moment" when your joints are aching, your head's throbbing, or you're living with a scary diagnosis? No wonder our first impulse is to run away. Bill Mies tried that.
"I am a stressed-out guy," say Mies, "but I've been working on it for a long time."
Mies is a yacht broker from Annapolis, Md., with a full white beard. About a year ago, he started having shoulder and neck problems. He saw doctors who gave him injections and a physical therapist who prescribed some exercises, but he still wasn't completely better.
He eventually found his way to a mindfulness class in Baltimore, modeled on Kabat-Zinn's teachings. The course is now offered in dozens of hospitals and medical centers around the country, and studies suggest it does help people cope with the psychological distress of diseases, such as arthritis, psoriasis and cancer.
The Body Scan
During one recent class, Bill Mies and seven other students practiced a technique called the body scan. Lying on mats and pillows wearing socks and comfy clothes, instructor Trish Magyari walked them through a sort of mental tour of the body.
"We'll travel down through the body bringing our awareness into our left foot," says Magyari. When people learn to stay with the scan, it becomes a useful trick or tool to shift your focus — whenever you need to.
"The point of it is to train our mind where we want it to go," Magyari says, instead of letting the mind wander into worry or be held hostage by the panic of pain.
Bill Mies finds the body scan extremely helpful at times, but acknowledges that during his most recent class, he was struggling.
"I found my mind drifting," he says. He found himself thinking, "I should be doing something more productive instead of paying attention to the sensations in my left leg."
Quieting these thoughts is a challenge for people just starting out, says Magyari. But the question is: If you can stick with it, does mindfulness training really help?
"I think the concept of who does it work for... depends on what exactly we're measuring," Magyari says.
Take for example, a small research study with 63 rheumatoid arthritis patients. After two months of mindfulness training, the patients' physical symptoms did not disappear, but they reported feeling better. Scores of psychological distress dropped 30 percent.
"It's true that not everyone's arthritis status changed," says Magyari. "However, the (patients) feel like they're coping with their arthritis much better than they were before."
The power to "stay in the moment" is not a gift. As Bill Mies is learning, it takes a lot of practice to get the benefits.
A Crash Course in Body Scan Meditation
Updated February 28, 2007·5:00 PM ET
Published February 28, 2007·3:44 AM ET
Vikki Valentine
Practice a seated body scan meditation with Trish Magyari. Follow along as she guides a class through the process. (Audio approximately 8 minutes, and contains lengthy pauses.)
Playlist
Embed
Trish Magyari teaches an eight-week-long Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction course, where students learn a range of meditations. At the end, participants decide which meditation, or combination of them, motivates and relaxes them the most.
Although rushing goes against the rules of meditation, Magyari gives us a pass with this crash course on the body scan, one of the meditations taught in the course.
The purpose of the body scan, she says, is "to bring awareness to each part of our body sequentially, to see how it is today — not to check in to change or judge the body, which we're apt to do, but just to experience it and see what's there."
"Most people find it extremely relaxing," Magyari says.
Get Ready
Block out at least 30 minutes of time and turn off your cell phone. Lie down in a comfortable place, such as your bed or a cushy mat on the floor.
Get Grounded
Before you start the scan, notice the parts of the body in contact with the mat.
"People often notice what is pressing is their heads or hips, so before the formal scan, we imagine softening around those areas," Magyari says.
This is a chance to tune into and relax parts of the body that are holding tension – such as the jaws, neck and shoulders, or even gripping in the calves.
Set Your Intention
Agree to let go of the past and future. Don't listen to the sounds around you. Let everything fade into the background but the body. Agree to meet what you find in the body with friendliness.
"Usually, when people find something in their body they don't like, they meet it with judgment; the body that's in pain is your enemy," Magyari says. "It's a very radical concept to meet the body with friendliness."
Begin the Scan
Imagine you're taking a tour of your body — looking to see what's there just today. Don't visualize or move your body parts; simply notice and experience them, one by one. Magyari says start with the left foot. Feel how the heel makes contact with the mat. Can you tell if your toes are colder than the rest of your foot? If you have a blanket over you or a sock on, notice the weight and texture of the fabric.
Once you scan over a body part, allow that part to fade from awareness. Let it go and then move up to the next body part: the ankle, the calf, the knee, the thigh. Then cross over the lower torso, travel down the right leg and start again at the right foot, and repeat, traveling up the body, part by part, until you reach the head.
Connect It All Together
After you scan the head, you want to connect the entire body together, says Magyari.
"Instructors give cues to help you feel the entire body," she says.
For example: Feel the head connected to the neck, the neck connected to the torso, the torso connected to the arms, and so on.
The final step is to feel the skin around the whole body, Magyari says. Notice the sensations on your skin — temperature, texture.
"At the very end, we're lying with the awareness of our wholeness in that moment. We're not thinking about what's right or wrong with us, our state of health, but just that sense of physical wholeness," Magyari says.
People suffering from chronic pain often find some relief with the body scan, she says. Magyari recalls one patient who had been living with chronic pain for 20 years.
"Previously, her sense was, 'I just hurt everywhere,'" says Magyari. After two weeks of body scan training, the patient realized there were parts of her body that weren't in pain. That may not sound like much to some people, but for patients who see their bodies ruled by pain, Magyari says it's a refreshing discovery.
For more on the body scan and the Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction courses, refer to the University of Massachusetts Center for Mindfulness and to the book Full Catastrophe Living, by Jon Kabat-Zinn.
Web Resources
University of Massachusetts Center for Mindfulness
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