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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Paul is good to have in the mix, here. He speaks forcefully to what he sees as good. He is reasonable though it took him a while to show that side.
The only reason to rise above the natural world is in the pursuit of virtue and in doing so the natural world is not invalidated it is recognized as the foundation of that ability.
Thou, O king, saw, and beheld a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible. This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. (Daniel 2:31-33)
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WBraun
climber
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Nice one Paul ...
The only reason to rise above the natural world is in the pursuit of virtue and in doing so
the natural world is not invalidated it is recognized as the foundation of that ability.
Yes the natural world is never invalidated although it is temporary it is very real and true ...
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jstan
climber
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some of these discussions don't help understand the science because people’s pre-existing
world views are much more important than any observable facts
We have no way of knowing which participants are familiar with the science. So such unstructured
discussions have low probability of actually advancing science. "Opinion" should not be a factor in
any event.
After my OP I looked Terry up in Wiki, so I later learned how he died. My OP was playing off only
your use of the past tense. I'll make an observation.
When we use chemicals to bypass the blood brain barrier we are pretending we personally know
enough to contravene that which has been developed evolutionarily over perhaps millions of years.
That's hubris.
In spades.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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And in any case, one can get many of the same effects in safer doses, through meditation.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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What Jan said; IMO is what is hard to believe if you haven't experienced it . That you can have an LSD type of perspective ; I am referring to a strong non-dualistic view of the world ( not the horrific hallucinations) occur rather suddenly through meditation.
It can be very disconcerting to have your perspective change both mentally and physically and not have taken any drugs. I can understand it occurring through catastrophic events but found it hard to believe meditation could do that until I experienced it.
To go from a dualistic experience to a non-dualistic experience is mind blowing and it is not philosphy
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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An insect brain:
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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So BASE, I wonder which part of this ganglion is free of (i.e., unconstrained by) either (a) prior causes or (b) underlying mechanistic rule?
"Libertarian" freedom of the will translates to freedom of some part or component of the nervous system. Right?
I wonder where it is.
.....
Evolution of living things... amazing.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Paul seems to be thinking clearly, but where I disagree with him is his placing value on evolution, going so far as to describe human evolution as "glory."
Evolution is very simple. If you survive long enough to reproduce, you win. If you do not reproduce, you lose. Right now, humans don't need much help reproducing. We are taking over the land surface of the planet, totally changing habitat for numerous other species. We are extinction masters from the viewpoint of a mammoth or passenger pigeon.
Just don't describe humans with words such as glory. It very much depends on which other species you are a member of, and you need to be aware that we are our own worst enemy.
Hell, look at War. For some reason, this beautiful blue marble we live on has arbitrary borders, and humans kill humans at an astonishing rate, based on those arbitrary borders. We may turn out to be our worst enemy, this inability to rise above tribalism.
Tribalism was almost certainly an evolutionary trait which helped us and our ancestors to survive. Cooperation has been described as one of our greatest strengths. We certainly aren't the strongest, fastest, or fiercest predator. We are the smartest. As far as we know.
What you can't avoid is the rapid growth of the brain in early humans and their ancestors. That big brain or ours has given us the ability, through our technology, to exterminate damn near anything that gets in our way.
It is a double edged sword in my mind. Our minds have made us, currently, the most successful vertebrate on the planet. We can take land and change it to grow food. We can organize on a global scale under the name of "trade."
We have the ability to destroy the planet, either through creeping slow climate change, or through war, or a number of other methods. Our ultimate survival will require that we somehow get around this tribalism. This problem we have as viewing other humans as either us or them. We drop bombs on people and are shocked when they get angry at us.
That is a big chasm that we must somehow cross. Get rid of that tribalism, which these days is normally thought of as nationalism.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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BASE, you seem to be in the writing-posting spirit today.
It occurs to me, you never answered my question. (A Largo dodge?)
We humans are a multitude of cells. That's what our hero Carl Sagan said in Cosmos.
We humans are a "multitude of cells." Agree?
Easy question. How about an answer?
.....
Gone again, I suspect.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Cooperation has been described as one of our greatest strengths. We certainly aren't the strongest, fastest, or fiercest predator. We are the smartest. As far as we know.
Base, i always appreciate your perspective...
However the main reason many humans can maintain this perspective is that those relative few who know otherwise are terrified and incompetent to deal with it; and seriously hide and protect their knowledge.
You might regard us as an experiment in a terrarium…
with many of the experimenters growing tired of our overpopulation and mutual destruction and hubris
hence the experiment is being terminated…
even though a few think we show some interesting promise and should be allowed to continue exploring our capabilities
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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The major hopeful thing about the human situation at the moment is that we have survived all other crises of mismatch with our environment. Humans don't change until they have to. Agriculture and the industrial revolution seemed to have occurred only when it was clear the previous system could no longer support us.
Who and what will survive the coming planetary crisis? None of us will be around to see if it's those with superior technology or those with superior numbers who have a few hold outs who survive in a cave somewhere, or perhaps a mix of both.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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It can be very disconcerting to have your perspective change both mentally and physically and not have taken any drugs. I can understand it occurring through catastrophic events but found it hard to believe meditation could do that until I experienced it.
To go from a dualistic experience to a non-dualistic experience is mind blowing and it is not philosphy
yes thank you
'meditation' is usually just a first step for quieting the mind and expanding awareness…a term i don't particularly like because it is so abused and generally misunderstood
it's a bit like getting in a car and having no knowledge of how to drive it or go anywhere
the non-dualistic experience you refer to might be sort of like fussing around in the car until you accidentally turn the key and hear the engine running for the first time
still with no clue how to drive anywhere, but starting to imagine the possibilities
perhaps you could continue this analogy to say some drugs can get you going in the fast lane of the freeway, still not knowing how to handle anything
'spiritual journey' under conscious control is perhaps a better term and requires a lot of knowledge and training beyond what you are likely to stumble upon in 'meditation'
earlier civilizations have developed knowledge of this general domain to a very high degree
however the barbaric non-civilized 'western civilization' has not only denied, but worked mightily to destroy such knowledge from earlier far superior civilizations
my appreciation of this thread is due to the presence of people with the intelligence and mental strength for seeking to understand
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WBraun
climber
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None of us will be around to see if it's those with superior technology or those with superior numbers who have a few hold outs who survive in a cave somewhere, or perhaps a mix of both.
Another absolute by people who make statements that say there are no absolutes.
How do even know that you will not be reborn in your next life again to see exactly what you claimed you will not see .....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Good job Tom,
however the barbaric non-civilized 'western civilization' has not only denied, but worked mightily to destroy such knowledge from earlier far superior civilizations
But i'd call them "the freedom of choice, or the one man one vote civilization". You know The People with The Constitution. Most of us westerner's have heard the big one's like "those who live by the sword die by the sword", and "love your enemy as you love yourself" and 'I see those who have come here to condemn you have left, so I no longer condemn you either. Go and sin no more." and then there's, "Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the Earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the Earth: But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becomes greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the birds of the air may lodge under the shadow of it". And my favorite for this thread, "with your faith, if you say unto the mountain move, it SHALL move"
These were authored by Jesus. around 5 BCE.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Another absolute by people who make statements that say there are no absolutes.
What is the probability that someone will determine the correct answer to What is "Mind"?
Start here:
What is the probability that this pill will land vertically when dropped?
1/3 right?
But it's round you say and there are 360 degrees of round surface and only one degree of flat surface (times 2).
Can it land in the groove? Absolutely not.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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What is the probability that someone will determine the correct answer to What is "Mind"?
Who's grading the exam?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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What is the probability that this pill will land vertically when dropped? 1/3 right?
Wrong
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zBrown
Ice climber
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What is the probability that this pill will land vertically when dropped? 1/3 right?
Wrong
You must show your work to get full credit. :}
There are three or perhaps 362 outcomes right?
Which are you choosing?
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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The whole non-dual view is so radical it isn't even considered or known as an option by most people. It is what the "no-thing" is based on. You basically perceive the view or experience of the "self" as a fabrication and the "non-self" (or bigger self in werner's terms) experience/view switches into place. So your new view is selfless. Gone is the self concern, the fear and the anger that makes up much of the "self's" view. It is a very confident place because there is no self doubt and since you are not vying to get the upper hand you tend to do less damage while you muddle about.
The key is how can you actually deeply perceive that the I MY Me (self) is a mental construction and when you look really deeply it isn't there. so how do you look? one really simple way is watch what you do and ask why did I do that? Only for me or for others ? and to ask the same question before you do stuff. and also very important in the process is to apologize when you F##k up.
It is harder to explain how the meditation works with attaining a selfless experience; you generally learn to do nothing but witness and are constantly letting go of what ever comes up in your mind/body and moving back to witnessing during the entire meditation process. It is a non stop process of letting go.
the way it works in walkaround daily practice is you "notice" you have a negative thought about yourself or someone else and you let it go or you notice how you might be having a very hard time letting it go. The hard times are typically the most fruitful;opportunities to work in the stuck areas.
That's funny Crankster!
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