What is "Mind?"

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paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:02pm PT
It would be very hard to come up with a weaker rebuttal to evolutionary theory than the spiritual doctrine of a few outlying Shaker groups or the gnostic mysticism of beleaguered Essene cults 2000 years ago.

Not the point. The point was to show mind tends to rise above, move beyond its evolutionary roots. I make no rebuttal to evolutionary theory except in the case of human thought which can judge its context and make the decision whether or not to continue despite the considerations of survival, that humanity isn't simply the tool of evolution protecting its egg sack of DNA, but Hamlet said it better than I can: To be or...
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
Not the point. The point was to show mind tends to rise above, move beyond its evolutionary roots. I make no rebuttal to evolutionary theory except in the case of human thought which can judge its context and make the decision whether or not to continue despite the considerations of survival, that humanity isn't simply the tool of evolution protecting its egg sack of DNA, but Hamlet said it better than I can: To be or...

But nevertheless I was right in that the central theme of your prior post was in fact a sort of rebuttal of evolution by way of the citing of those groups you referenced as qualifying for the exception you have outlined above, namely, a sort of deliberate invalidation and negation of the natural world in favor of "rising above" it -- in their case in the service of religious or mystical purposes ; in another case perhaps as the result of a personality disorder , or in yet another in the service of a beleaguered romanticism .

paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 03:57pm PT
But nevertheless I was right in that central theme of your prior post was in fact a sort of rebuttal of evolution in the citing of those groups you referenced as qualifying for the exception you have outlined above, namely, a sort of deliberate invalidation of the natural world in favor of "rising above" it -- in their case in the service of religious or mystical purposes. In another case perhaps as the result of a personality disorder , or in yet another in the service of a beleaguered romanticism.

I'm not rebutting evolution, I'm celebrating the human mind, one of the great glories of evolution. In morality there is the realization of higher, more virtuous choices than mere survival and these are the product of mind. I don't support invalidation of the natural world. Just the opposite. What else I don't support is the notion that human thought/mind isn't considered something remarkably special, mysterious, and unknown to science beyond the brain that produces it and certainly not something equivalent to the life cycle of a virus. The only reason to rise above the natural world is in the pursuit of virtue and in doing so the natural world is not invalidated it is recognized as the foundation of that ability.

Don't know how apt your Hamlet soliloquy line is. After all, Hamlet contemplates suicide while uttering it; his second option offing the uncle who has killed his father.

The aptness is simply in the realization of the choice.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Dec 1, 2015 - 05:53pm PT
I'm celebrating the human mind, one of the great glories of evolution. In morality there is the realization of higher, more virtuous choices than mere survival and these are the product of mind. I don't support invalidation of the natural world. Just the opposite. What else I don't support is the notion that human thought/mind isn't considered something remarkably special, mysterious, and unknown to science beyond the brain that produces it



I put a value on humility

Tom Stoppard
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:25pm PT
The point was to show mind tends to rise above, move beyond its evolutionary roots.

Happens, but art and artifacts aren't unique to our species, nor is morality...





Because no animal has those special feelings humans get...


paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:35pm PT
Yeah, just like the Sistine Ceiling. Michelangelo move over.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:45pm PT
Constructions by human beings have a distinctive quality.

but apparently not so,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chopper_(archaeology);

which takes us back 2.5 million years BCE or so...
what happens before then?

maybe there is no "mind?" to have those lofty, noble thoughts of Paul's... but we cannot discern the humanly distinct "constructions" prior to that... even though there are humans

The use of tools by apes including chimpanzees[9] and orangutans[10] can be used to argue in favour of tool-use as an ancestral feature of the hominin family. Tools made from bone, wood, or other organic materials were therefore in all probability used before the Oldowan.[11] Oldowan stone tools are simply the oldest recognisable tools which have been preserved in the archaeological record.


oh, perhaps we learned how to do this from our ancestors? before there were "humans"?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldowan




healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 06:56pm PT
Yeah, just like the Sistine Ceiling. Michelangelo move over.

Each species proportional to its behavioral capabilities - absolutely. But I get it; romantics have to believe love, art and morality are purely human artifacts without any discernible roots in 'lesser' species.

Where could Michelangelo have gotten the idea (and skills)?


Then again, maybe it was a very unique lightning bolt out of the universal blue or a gift from god handed down directly once we were 'sophisticated' enough to receive it.
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
But I get it; romantics have to believe love, art and morality are purely human artifacts without any discernible roots in 'lesser' species.

I'm not a romantic. I don't think you understand what a Romantic is. The nature worshipers are the Romantics, please read Jean Jacque Rousseau: "nature is good therefore natural man is good and by contrast civilization corrupts."

It's the Romantic that seeks to elevate what you call the "lesser" species. It is a Romantic view that art, morality and virtue are within the realm of the primitive. I'm a realist. I love nature and existence but I know the reality of those things. I know that mind/reason/rational thought have the potential to elevate us and that is a gift.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
Dec 1, 2015 - 07:45pm PT
Not sure if you can equate the hoarding of objects to art. If so, then the many self storage places in America means that we're the most artistic nation on earth?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
Not sure if you can equate the hoarding of objects to art. If so, then the many self storage places in America means that we're the most artistic nation on earth?

This is 'hoarding of objects':


Which bears little resemblance to the careful selection, arrangement and placement of objects:




Maybe they're just obsessive-compuls....oh, wait, that would surely be a human-only trait as well...
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
Steven Pinker, Robert Wright,
two favorites...

http://meaningoflife.tv/videos/32915

A sample:

Just how deluded are we? 10:49
How science gives Steve's life meaning, 3:23
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:27pm PT
Which bears little resemblance to the careful arrangement and placement of objects:

OH, really, I thought it (art) was just subjective personal opinion.So are you saying one form of art is better than another? And by what criteria can you possibly make such a judgement? How do you define careful arrangement and "placement" Aren't these simply subjective terms with no foundation in the "Hard Sciences" and their progeny: fact?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 08:54pm PT
And you're saying you can't tell the difference between what the human hoarder and the bird did?

Again, love, art or morality, it's all just behavior commensurate with capabilities regardless of species. Nothing particularly transcendent about that. Personally, I find both the birds' mating displays and human art equally profound with respect to their comparative capabilities.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:04pm PT
Terrence McKenna used to say, ‘Modern physics is based on the principle, ‘Give us one free miracle and we’ll explain the rest.’
jstan

climber
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
Terrence McKenna used to say, ‘Modern physics is based on the principle, ‘Give us one free miracle and we’ll explain the rest.’

Are we left to presume things did not work out well for Terry?
paul roehl

Boulder climber
california
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:09pm PT
And you're saying you can't tell the difference between what the human hoarder and the bird did?

No, I'm just asking by what criteria can you possibly make such a judgement?

Personally, I find both the birds' mating displays and human art equally profound with respect to their comparative capabilities.

Funny you don't realize it or understand that this is a quintessentially Romantic view. Might as well have been written by Keats.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:35pm PT
i guess you could say dying of a brain tumor like Terry is a sub-optimum experience

i have reason to believe that induced brain tumors have been used as a weapon against advanced thinkers who challenge the establishment view

as several of my brightest creative associates have died that way


And the one free miracle is the appearance of all the matter and energy and all the laws that govern it from nothing instantaneously!



some of this discussion is nicely reinforcing my conviction that our species designation is incorrect and we should be designated Homo Hubris
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 1, 2015 - 09:59pm PT
i have reason to believe that induced brain tumors have been used as a weapon against advanced thinkers who challenge the establishment view

Dude, I've done as much acid as the next guy, but I'm still trying to figure out what the impetus was that triggered someone as smart as you to slide into this sort of nutjobbery. I mean, inquiring minds really want to know. It's as if all of a sudden you up and decided every keystroke you ever made actually went into magic box filled with fairy dust as opposed to a stepwise evolution of silicon.

[ P.S. Are you saying Haramein needs an immediate cat scan? ]
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 1, 2015 - 10:18pm PT
hmm…thanks…i accept the complement…

;-)

some of these discussions don't help understand the science because people’s pre-existing world views are much more important than any observable facts
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