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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 29, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
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No. And for a simple reason. One life is guilty of serious capital offense, and one is the epitome of innocent.
Seems simple to me.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Aug 29, 2011 - 07:59pm PT
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I didn't say I wasn't pro-choice, I'm just against abortion. It shouldn't be illegal.
Just discouraged.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 29, 2011 - 11:46pm PT
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Make the convicted murderers pay restitution the victim's family..Make them get a job at Mammoth Mt. ...Wait...that would be cruel and unjust punishment...
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:23am PT
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Ken M,
Most of your assertions are wrong.
The death penalty would be quite a deterrent if the executions were done within two years of the crime and done in a public fashion (live/video).
The evil one
Well, that's like saying if you're aunt had a mustache she'd be your uncle.
They aren't, and they won't be. So what you are saying is that, the death penalty will never be a significant deterrent.
Actually, the facts show the opposite. EVERY year since 1990, the average murder rate in the US in states with the death penalty has been HIGHER than in states without the dealth penalty. Since 2000, the murder rate has averaged about 40% HIGHER! EVERY YEAR!
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates
People talk about the terrible delays in California. In fact, we've spend 40 BILLION DOLLARS to execute 13 people in the last 30 years. We are often compare to the Capitol of executions, Texas, with 473 people.
What were the murder rates in 2009? CA: 5.3 Tx 5.4
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state
Doesn't seem like much of a deterrent to me!
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:49am PT
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The man who drafted the current death penalty law in Ca, now believes that it is bad law, and that an innocent man was executed under it, and that it should be eliminated:
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-oe-morrison-donald-heller-071611,0,2738858,full.column
=
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620,0,3505671.story
Death penalty costs California $184 million a year, study says
Alarcon four years ago issued an urgent appeal for overhaul of capital punishment in the state, noting that the average lag between conviction and execution was more than 17 years, twice the national figure. Now it is more than 25 years, with no executions since 2006 and none likely in the near future because of legal challenges to the state's lethal injection procedures.
The long wait for execution "reflects a wholesale failure to fund the efficient, effective capital punishment system that California voters were told they were choosing" in the battery of voter initiatives over the last three decades that have expanded the penalty to 39 special circumstances in murder, the report says.
BOYS AND GIRLS, NOTE THAT THE MAIN REASON IS THE LACK OF FUNDING.
The authors outline three options for voters to end the current reality of spiraling costs and infrequent executions: fully preserve capital punishment with about $85 million more in funding for courts and lawyers each year; reduce the number of death penalty-eligible crimes for an annual savings of $55 million; or abolish capital punishment and save taxpayers about $1 billion every five or six years.
SO THERE YOU GO, TO SATISFY THE BLOOD-LUST, JUST THROW ANOTHER 85 MILLION OF TAX DOLLARS, EVERY YEAR, TO KEEP THINKS HAPPENING.
TAX TAX TAX Great Republican Plan Borrow and Spend for NO USEFUL RESULT.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 03:11am PT
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Ken....actually I looked at the stats
Not saying it is a deterrent or anything..
But Cali has came down from 9.6 in 1996 to the present 5.3 aprox numbers
While Texas has came down from 7.6 to the present 5.4...aprox numbers
So is stats are actually not in your arguments favor.
Riley, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning. If one state has basically executed no one, and the other has executed hundreds, and the rate is basically the same in both states (to me, those numbers are hardly different), then the death penalty has had no effect in those two state comparisons.
The broader stats I posted compared all 50 states, where there was the 40% difference.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 08:46am PT
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bluering: I didn't say I wasn't pro-choice, I'm just against abortion. It shouldn't be illegal.
You godless liberal...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:11am PT
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I always thought that if judge sentenced to capital punishment, and evidence later came up that showed the person innocent, that the judge who handed down the sentence should be tried for murder.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 30, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
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I, too, question whether the death penalty deters anyone other than the person executed. That said, Ken, many of those statistical comparisons suffer from technical statistical problems that are quite difficult to solve. Correlations between murder rates and executions or, for that matter, between crime rates and police expenditures, need to deal with issues of multicollinearity of the dependent variables -- something common in econometric studies.
In simpler terms, the statistical model must try to deal with two hypothesis that send the correlation in different directions. Since courts sentence defendants to death only after the commission of a capital crime, one would expect there to be more executions in states where there are more capital crimes. Simultaneously, however, for there to be a deterrent effect, one must assume that the greater the proportion of executions, the lower the rate of capital crime commission.
Although there are statistical techniques like two-stage least squares designed to correct for multicollinearity, there's a more fundamental estimation problem, namely the specification of the model. How do we know what the crime rate would be if there were no police expenditures? How do we know what the murder rate would be if there were no executions?
The statistical problems are daunting, to say the least. That's why we shouldn't put much credence in simple correlation comparisons.
That also has a consequence, though, at least in my book. If we're justifying execution as a general deterrent to the commission of a capital offense, the only person we can be sure will be deterred from committing future crimes is the executed prisoner. We cannot statistically prove or disprove a deterrent effect using existing statistical data and models.
John
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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From those commies over at Bloomberg:
Policy makers struggling to understand the barrage of financial panics, protests and other ills afflicting the world would do well to study the works of a long-dead economist: Karl Marx. The sooner they recognize we’re facing a once-in-a-lifetime crisis of capitalism, the better equipped they will be to manage a way out of it.
As Marx put it in Kapital: “The ultimate reason for all real crises always remains the poverty and restricted consumption of the masses.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-29/give-marx-a-chance-to-save-the-world-economy-commentary-by-george-magnus.html
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 02:36pm PT
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John and Fattrad, I feel like I'm in a fair discussion!
As a converted opponent, I see the arguments of both sides. However, what gets to me is that the deterrent issue cannot seem to be legitimately argued if one cannot demonstrate the effect. I grant all the statistical shortcomings. But if one cannot demonstrate the deterrent effect, then I don't think one can legitimately use it as an argument.
I am mightily troubled by the overturned cases. The argument that is made towards a MUCH faster execution of sentence only means that many more innocent people WILL be executed.
Clearly, innocent people have been deliberately railroaded by prosecutors/police for a variety of reasons. A "rush to execute" will enhance this practice. The usual practice of destroying evidence once the sentence is carried out settles the issue, as well. All this is very troubling to me.
And the other issue is the cost. It clearly costs a LOT of money to exact our blood lust. Is it worth millions and millions just to kill people?
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dirtbag
climber
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:07pm PT
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Oh, unions are the problem, alright...
The union of millionaires and billionaires. Union busting, anyone?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:42pm PT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 04:43pm PT
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Ken M,
How much is the life of one of your loved ones worth?? Hypothetically a murderer of someone you cherish may be deterred.
The evil one
But I haven't seen anything that has suggested that is true. So you are really saying all the tea in china. All the gold in Fort Knox. All the Tax Dollars in America. An odd argument from you. You are suggesting a "death tax"? Because that is what is needed to make the penalty functional in this state.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Aug 30, 2011 - 09:57pm PT
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Yeah well they ain't Obama's daughters donnald...strike one..!
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:02pm PT
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Interesting Op/Ed by Paul Krugman
Republicans Against Science
Jon Huntsman Jr., a former Utah governor and ambassador to China, isn’t a serious contender for the Republican presidential nomination. And that’s too bad, because Mr. Hunstman has been willing to say the unsayable about the G.O.P. — namely, that it is becoming the “anti-science party.” This is an enormously important development. And it should terrify us.
...
And the deepening anti-intellectualism of the political right, both within and beyond the G.O.P., extends far beyond the issue of climate change.
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apogee
climber
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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What about her?
She only thinks what Gawd tells her to think.
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Stewart
Trad climber
Courtenay, B.C.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:07pm PT
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Degaine: If I misunderstood your earlier comment, please accept my sincerest apologies for my reaction. I guess what makes me somewhat quick to take offence here is not so much the posting of specious information by these guys in support of Fascist beliefs, but rather their joyful celebration of a mindset that portrays gleeful murder and other evils as a form of patriotism.
There is ample room in any healthy Democracy for differing opinions expressed by concerned citizens, since that's precisely what so many people in the past have fought and died to create and defend. However, I haven't the slightest doubt that in the rest of the civilized world, people of ANY mainstream political belief would view the opinions expressed by Fart Tad & Bookworm and their supporters with a combination of disgust, shock, and concern for the mental health of anyone who is so comfortable expressing and defending these vile sentiments, and for an excellent reason:
Hitler and his wealthy supporters attained power through the cynical manipulation of the structures of a Democratic society, and the result was that hundreds of thousands of brave U.S. citizens and tens of millions of others sacrificed their lives to stop him and his allies before their evil was halted.
Hitler's body died, but it appears to me that his soul still lingers among many of the sentiments expressed in this forum, and history has a nasty habit of repeating itself.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 30, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Pitiful, in an outmoded and grasping way.
Outmoded in what way, Donald?
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Aug 31, 2011 - 12:34am PT
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"Remember how the establishment media use to make a big deal out of the Bush girls when they would have their little brushes with the law. Yet Obama has two relatives in this country illegally,with phony SS IDs, driving around drunk, and been doing it for 19 years. And not a peep out of the media."
Yeah, they'd never do that to a Democrat:'
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