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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 16, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
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DMT: Not to say there weren't soap suds.
Don’t do that!
I spurted out wine all over my counter, thankyouverymuch.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 16, 2016 - 08:32pm PT
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Science exists outside of experience
A little strange . . .
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 17, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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"I remember thee."
Jeremiah 2:2
Let us note that Christ delights to think upon his Church, and to look upon her beauty. As the bird returneth often to its nest, and as the wayfarer hastens to his home, so doth the mind continually pursue the object of its choice. We cannot look too often upon that face which we love; we desire always to have our precious things in our sight. It is even so with our Lord Jesus. From all eternity "His delights were with the sons of men;" his thoughts rolled onward to the time when his elect should be born into the world; he viewed them in the mirror of his foreknowledge. "In thy book," he says, "all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them" (Ps. 139:16). When the world was set upon its pillars, he was there, and he set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. Many a time before his incarnation, he descended to this lower earth in the similitude of a man; on the plains of Mamre (Gen. 18), by the brook of Jabbok (Gen. 32:24-30), beneath the walls of Jericho (Jos. 5:13), and in the fiery furnace of Babylon (Dan. 3:19, 25), the Son of Man visited his people. Because his soul delighted in them, he could not rest away from them, for his heart longed after them. Never were they absent from his heart, for he had written their names upon his hands, and graven them upon his side. As the breastplate containing the names of the tribes of Israel was the most brilliant ornament worn by the high priest, so the names of Christ's elect were his most precious jewels, and glittered on his heart. We may often forget to meditate upon the perfections of our Lord, but he never ceases to remember us. Let us chide ourselves for past forgetfulness, and pray for grace ever to bear him in fondest remembrance. Lord, paint upon the eyeballs of my soul the image of thy Son. CHARLES SPURGEON
...Home for CHRISTmas!
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 18, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
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Creation and the Seven-Day Week
by William J. Bauer, Ph.D.
An often-overlooked testimony to the fact of creation is the strange phenomenon of the seven-day week. Almost universally observed in the present world and often observed in the ancient world, it is so deeply rooted in human experience and so natural physiologically that we seldom think about its intrinsic significance.
All the other important time markers in human life are clearly based on astronomical and terrestrial constants. The day, for example, is the duration of one rotation of the earth on its axis; the year is the duration of one orbital revolution of the earth about the sun; the month is the approximate interval between new moons; the seasons are marked by the equinoxes and solstices.
But the week has no astronomical basis whatever! Yet we order our lives in a seven-day cycle, doing certain things on Monday, certain other things on Tuesday, and so on through the week. Furthermore, the common pattern is one of six normal working days, then a day of rest or change, then six normal days again, and so on, with the special day regarded as either the last of the seven preceding it, or the first of the seven following it.
How could such a system ever have originated? Most encyclopedias and reference books treat the subject very superficially, if at all. One can easily find extensive discussions about the length of the year and the length of the month in different eras and cultures, but it is very difficult to locate information about the week. Most of the discussions that do try to deal with it attribute the origin of the week to the use of "market days," pointing out also that the interval between market days was different in different nations, though rarely varying more than a day or so above or below seven days. With the exception of an occasional Biblical scholar, almost none of these writers even considers the obvious explanation—namely, that the seven-day week was established by God Himself, at the beginning!...
...FOR MORE http://www.icr.org/article/creation-seven-day-week/
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2016 - 01:46pm PT
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Couple of good book reviews in the Sunday NYT on the "Undoing Project" and "A Woman Looking at Men Looking at Women." Interesting stuff, perhaps more appropriate to the Mind thread, but thought provoking nonetheless.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 18, 2016 - 02:00pm PT
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What then *should* be taught? Only things that can be empirically proven? Only things that are material or physical? Only things that one knows for certain?
In Science class, yes, including some items that are strongly suspected, but not proven. In high school you just learn the basics. A little Botany, a little Zoology, a little human anatomy. It isn't that in depth.
What I DON'T want to see in PUBLIC schools is Inteligent Design or some such hogwash. And don't say that evolution is just a theory. The fossil record proves evolution to be a bald fact.
If you really think about natural selection, you will realize how brilliant and obvious it is. Evolution has no agenda. You survive and reproduce or you do not. There is no invisible hand necessary, and none evident.
A huge number of people don't buy evolution, and that is because a lot of people go to church, and see it as a threat to the creation story in the Bible. Just the Bible. If you are going to teach creation stories, then it should be in a sociology class, because there are many of them which claim to be true.
Science class should be for science. Most people don't go into a science as a profession, but the basics aren't too much for an 18 year old.
It is sort of like Santa Claus. It is a lot of fun having your child believe completely in Santa Claus, but by the time you tell them that it is a myth, they typically have suspected it for a time already.
Basic science isn't too tough.
Keep the faith questions in a different class. They don't teach theology in public schools, or none that I've seen, but I wouldn't be against it. Not Bible Study, but a study of all religions.
I don't think that learning about Islam would be well received by parents, though. As I've said, I know people who have home schooled their kids to protect them from the evolution class. That single class.
Biology is on the SAT's, so you need to know it, just like Algebra.
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Dec 18, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
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The difference between belief in Santa Claus and God - is that your childhood indoctrination into religion is reinforced by the threat of ostracism from much of your society and burning in hell if you fail to believe.
That's a pretty potent combination for a child, when the indoctrination is delivered by adults who are your indisputable authority. Even when serious doubt finally creeps in, if it does, one is tempted to cautiously hedge his bets or just keep his doubts in the closet.
Arguing about the existence of a god is rather pointless, as while there is absolutely overwhelming evidence that much of the belief system is wrong (e.g. creationism), there is also absolutely no evidence either way that a god either exists or does not. Which perhaps helps explain why a few scientists inexplicably claim to have faith.
Hedging bets?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 18, 2016 - 04:08pm PT
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"The difference between belief in Santa Claus and God - is that your childhood indoctrination into religion is reinforced by the threat of ostracism from much of your society and burning in hell if you fail to believe."
Check.
"That's a pretty potent combination for a child, when the indoctrination is delivered by adults who are your indisputable authority. Even when serious doubt finally creeps in, if it does, one is tempted to cautiously hedge his bets or just keep his doubts in the closet."
Check.
"Arguing about the existence of a god is rather pointless, as while there is absolutely overwhelming evidence that much of the belief system is wrong (e.g. creationism), there is also absolutely no evidence either way that a god either exists or does not. Which perhaps helps explain why a few scientists inexplicably claim to have faith."
Which God (concept)? It is amazing how many nonreligious people still end up giving Abrahamic religion adherents - to their delights - a free pass on this issue. The God of the Abrahamic religions (Jehovah aka Yahweh aka Allah aka the God of Moses aka the God of Abraham) is a very specific God concept. He is a jealous warrior God. He is an intervening personal God (in personal form in human image). He is hardly the metaphorical hypothetical God concept of Spinoza or Einstein. It's a shame the American public in general is so theologically illiterate or shallow and superficial that it cannot get past this simple point. God Yahweh (aka God Jehovah) has no more grounds for actual existence than God Zeus or God Amon-Re - other local personal intervening Gods of the iron-age world.
So making the case against the existence of God Jehovah is every bit as solid as making the case against Aphrodite or Quetzalcoatl... or making the case against a teapot in orbit around the sun out beyond Mars. Evidence is hardly required, only reason or reasonable thinking.
(1) Who here is "agnostic" concerning the actual existence of Apollo or Artemis, Son and Daughter of Zeus? (2) What Christian or Muslim is not "atheistic" re Athena or Hermes?
Is making the case against the existence of Aphrodite arising from sea foam off the shore of a Greek Ionian island a pointless exercise among spiritual trouveres (truth seekers of reality)? If it's not "pointless" for Aphrodite then it shouldn't be "pointless" for the Abrahamic warrior God Yahweh/Allah either.
"God". Which "God"?
....
http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-u-s-s-r-felland-the-world-fell-asleep-1481930888
"The story of human progress is striving, dreaming and sacrificing for a better future."
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 18, 2016 - 10:40pm PT
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Is making the case against the existence of Aphrodite arising from sea foam off the shore of a Greek Ionian island a pointless exercise among spiritual trouveres (truth seekers of reality)? If it's not "pointless" for Aphrodite then it shouldn't be "pointless" for the Abrahamic warrior God Yahweh/Allah either.
Do you have any idea what the birth of Aphrodite means? What Botticelli meant when he depicted it? I didn't think so. You denigrate what you don't understand. You have no idea what your talking about. Absolutely ridiculous.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2016 - 12:36am PT
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"Do you have any idea what the birth of Aphrodite means? What Botticelli meant when he depicted it? I didn't think so. You denigrate what you don't understand. You have no idea what your talking about. Absolutely ridiculous." -paul roehl
yeah, you get context and nuance; and you get the distinctions between myth, art and reality, kudos.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 19, 2016 - 06:17am PT
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Silly rabbits, Santa, myths, arts, realities are merely directions toward god. one only needs to look inside oneself, He stands at your door, every day, knocking🚪
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 19, 2016 - 07:41am PT
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Base: In Science class, yes, . . . .
Then it would be ok to teach the Bible or myths outside a science class?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2016 - 08:53am PT
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Science and engineering are bloody brilliant, aren't they?
Aside: Five million plus views at YouTube and 1000-plus thumbs down. Wondering here if paul r is one of these?
(1) I bet "Spot" could do 1000 push-ups. (2) I won't be FULLY impressed until Spot plugs himself into the wall to recharge. (3) Now imagine Spot with human-level AI, lol!
...
A main reason evolutionary construction of physiological forms - whether it's in the form of blood clotting or immune response or cell differentiation or perception (mental life, subjective experience) - fools many folks into thinking "there's got to be more to the formula than just material and mechanism" is because these amazing complexities are seamlessly constructed to the point of appearing magical. Complex, seamless constructions - selected and refined over a billion years - they boggle the mind.
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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Dec 19, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
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Do you have any idea what the birth of Aphrodite means? What Botticelli meant when he depicted it? I didn't think so. You denigrate what you don't understand. You have no idea what your talking about. Absolutely ridiculous.
Why does saying that a particular story is fictional "denigrate" it? Can someone only appreciate mythology if they believe it as an historical truth?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 19, 2016 - 01:31pm PT
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Fossil Climber said something very true:
The difference between belief in Santa Claus and God - is that your childhood indoctrination into religion is reinforced by the threat of ostracism from much of your society and burning in hell if you fail to believe.
That's a pretty potent combination for a child, when the indoctrination is delivered by adults who are your indisputable authority. Even when serious doubt finally creeps in, if it does, one is tempted to cautiously hedge his bets or just keep his doubts in the closet.
I gave up religion at 13, and I was going to church and Sunday school every weekend. My best friend died a slow and horrible death from bone cancer. I started asking, "What God would do this?"
Once you ask one question, the others fall like Domino's. I wasn't ostracized, but relatives put pressure on me, and parent's of friends didn't like me around, thinking that I would lead them to quit church.
I've been Baptized in a Methodist Church. I even got saved at a Baptist Revival once. So I know what it is like to live in a religious home and town. These days, my atheism definitely creates a divide between me and religious friends and family. I bow my head for the Thanksgiving prayer, because my Dad, who says it, prays for the poor to have this. I'm all for that.
MikeL, as for teaching theology in a separate class, I'm all for it. It is a big part of living, even in the technological era. To be legal, you would have to discuss all religions, so I doubt that religious folks would go for it.
I grew up saying the Lord's Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance first thing every morning in grade school class. I come from a deeply religious crowd.
I'm not a militant atheist, so Dawkins would not approve of me. I don't force it on others very much. I've repeatedly told Go-B that I don't want to change his mind.
I just can't stand some hogwash that in no way fits the science narrative of the past. That is what I study, the past history of the Earth, and I've been at it for 30 years. I learn new stuff every day, and none of it fits the biblical narrative. Sorry that it doesn't. It would be so easy if the evidence DID agree with religious narrative.
It does not. It is that simple. As for the bulk of religion (creation is a very small part), I agree with some of it. Jesus talked about sweeping morality towards the least of us. That appeals to me, and is a part of my life. Not believing in God doesn't mean that I can't learn something from the Bible. On the contrary. Jesus did not approve of the rich. He hung out with the poor and sick. That is ignored by so many people.
When someone on this site asks for help, I've often sent them hefty donations. I don't judge them. They need, I have, so I share. That is good Karma, or whatever you want to call it.
There is a spectrum of good to bad people. We all know this. How we treat each other is personally important, and a lot of what I learned in church has served me well, to make me a better human being.
So I don't toss it all out. There are gems that anyone decent would agree with. Perhaps the Bible did create the ethical framework that many of us follow. OK. I have no problem with that.
It does say in the Koran that it is alright to kill apostates. The Koran is one damn scary book. I urge everyone to read it. ISIS cutting off heads is just Sharia Law. The Saudi's do the same thing, although they aren't so happy and eager as ISIS.
The book of Leviticus does say that a man laying with another man is an abomination. That is where the Westboro Baptist Church gets their outlook. Leviticus also prohibits mixing of clothing fiber and planting of more than one crop. Nobody cares about those. Read Leviticus online. It is short, maybe 30 minutes out of your life. It is near the beginning of the Old Testament, part of the ancient Hebrew Bible.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Dec 19, 2016 - 01:43pm PT
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Do you have any idea what the birth of Aphrodite means? What Botticelli meant when he depicted it? I didn't think so.
Exactly.
We answer our own questions, and then believe the answers that we tell ourselves, as if our answers came from divine intervention. Heck, sometimes we're even right! :-)
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Norton
Social climber
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Dec 19, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
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It does say in the Koran that it is alright to kill apostates.
yes, "parts" of the Koran are chock full of orders to kill humans
just like the bible, where god orders humans to make slaves of other humans and to rape and murder
we are also ordered to adore and worship this new god, reduced over time to now just one god
and no, you don't get to cherry pick which parts of the bible or Koran you decide to believe is true
because the big guy in the sky did not make mistakes, his orders are clear and definitive
rape, murder and enslavement were great fun 2000 years ago, greatly empowering ego
and since god did not issue any aftermarket corrections, those orders are still valid today
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 19, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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you don't get to cherry pick which parts of the bible or Koran you decide to believe is true
What people seem to have a hard time grasping is that the Bible is filled with truth. If you don't understand that it's because you're blind to anything but a literal interpretation. Literal certainty is not wisdom.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 19, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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Rick Perry, a Christian creationist fundamentalist, is now in charge of this nation's nuclear arsenal. Congrats, America.
Paul, with all due respect, you've lost all credibility.
you're blind to anything but a literal interpretation. Literal certainty is not wisdom.
Oh, please, tell it to Rick Perry, Ted Cruz, Mike Hucklebee... Frank and Anne Graham... and the umpteen million others. You're living under something of an ivory rock.
BASE, it's really the Hadith more the Koran that prescribes death (as opposed to punishment) for apostasy. Research it.
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