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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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All evidence confirms that God exists eternally.
OK, I'm waiting...
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Science gave us penicillin, insulin, polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine,
nylon ropes, aluminum, chromium alloys, stainless steel,
electricity, electronics, telephone, radio, radar, transistors, computers, satellites, gps, microwaves,
eyeglasses, telescopes, hearing aids,
and much more.
What has religion given us?
Let's see: The Sistine Chapel, Chartres Cathedral, St. Peter's, The Pantheon, The Parthenon. Hagia Sophia, The Arena Chapel, San Marcos, The Pyramids at Giza, The Frari, St. Chapel, The Temple of Athena Nike, The Divine Comedy, Augustine's Confessions, The Sermon on the Mount, Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man, The Psalms of David, Job, St. Francis, The Last Supper at Santa Maria della Grazie, Michelangelo's David, Donatello's David, The Temple of Artemis at Corfu, Paradise Lost, The Thinker, Hermes by Praxiteles, The Venus de Milo, The Apollo of the Belvedere...
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Big greasy fart noise
Man in his wonderful evolution gave us all of the things
There is divinity with-in us all,
and the ability to have faith, -even suspend common sense & believe lies as "Gospel,-
that were write to keep civilization intact providing the smart guys to get the word out in
A way that the lowly throng, could embrace it.
while the smart guys figured it out.
I'm amazed and saddened to see that a rape of a teenager would lead to the downfall Of the science based original religion.
I'll not post the next thing that I've written here.
for more than a few here I still like, and once held much more respect for.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Religion gave us a place in which to understand the experience of living. Now science attempts to do the very same thing, but in a very different way. Each presents a bias.
What do you wonder at? eyeglasses? telescopes? the purported infinite universe? your own experience? “things” that you think are special (art, penicillin, MLK?)?
These are all false choices and unnecessary dichotomies.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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:-D
Sure, you can choose everything. In fact, I encourage you to do so.
Cheers, buddy.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 10, 2016 - 10:58am PT
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What has religion given us?
Forgiveness, Peace, and Love...
Colossians 1:13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Ephesians 3:18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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MikeL said:
Religion gave us a place in which to understand the experience of living. Now science attempts to do the very same thing, but in a very different way. Each presents a bias.
What the F? Other than semi-sciences like sociology, psychology, economics, and study of human behavior, science has no say in how we understand living.
It is an empty cup if you turn to science for meaning, in that sense. Their is an ethical component in science, but it is mainly concerned with being truthful and careful.
Pretty much irrelevant, unless it conflicts with a religious text. We still see regular attempts to discount evolution as some loose "Theory." People, I live in a room filled with plant fossils two days a week, and they cannot be dismissed. Certainly not as the result of a flood, or being 12,000 years old. The rocks say what they say: The Earth is unimaginably old, and if it was created for our pleasure, the almighty certainly took his good time getting around to creating US.
Other than Evolution, Geology, and Cosmology, which have firm answers on how the Earth and the Universe came to be, it has nothing to do with daily life. Most people live their entire lives without being aware of the most basic scientific theories. Even incredibly successful ones, like evolution, plate tectonics, the afterglow of the Big Bang...and climate change.
Most folks are anti-science on at least one of those theories. A shoot the messenger type thing.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 10, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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Base,
I like science fiction and God being God in the beginning could have folded space and time (Einstein) turning billions of years into days!
...just a thought! : )
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Dec 10, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
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What is forgiveness if I have chosen to turn my back on religion, to commit blasphemy, and to denounce the existence of God, and cannot be forgiven for it?
If there is no God, what is there to forgive?
If believers would not forgive me, the concept of grace and forgiveness is baseless and hypocritical.
I give no credence to a god or men who would damn me, while I have done nothing to harm them, except to deny my allegiance to their hierarchy.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:16pm PT
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Base: . . . science has no say in how we understand living.
Science paints the context and the background to everything. It gives us a reality by which we “operate” (live) in.
You’re either naive or obtuse. I don’t see how anyone cannot see the vision of science, especially if they are amenable to research studies in perception, cognition, neuroscience, AI, expert systems, and anthropology (among others).
Rocks. Right. What do you think about faith, trust, empathy, commitment, love, hatred, will, various emotions, instincts that you cannot pin down materially? Those go out with everything else that’s not rock-hard material?
How does your world of pure materiality feel to you? You "operating efficiently?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 11, 2016 - 04:18pm PT
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Food for thought: Crossing ebola and small pox (in a USSR lab, say) to produce a highly virulent, highly dangerous weapon. Would this be an example of a "valid scientific enterprise"? Dr. Jordan Peterson says it is, I don't agree. I'd instead call it an example of an evil engineering enterprise a few steps up or a few levels up (depending on how one measures) from dynamiting a rival's house or business, say. It's not my idea of a "scientific enterprise" at all.
https://youtu.be/07Ys4tQPRis?t=21m20s
He seems so sure of himself to label this dangerous project a "valid scientific enterprise".
"Is it really a good idea to build hydrogen bombs?" "Is it a really a good idea to build a super dangerous virus?" These are not "scientific" questions, they are at bottom moral social behavioral questions.
What would Carl Sagan say? Personally, I do not imagine him agreeing w Peterson on this point.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 11, 2016 - 09:58pm PT
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Malemute, thanks for this Asimov bit of encouragement.
"Keep the charge."
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Dec 12, 2016 - 08:29am PT
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I think there is a difference between those doing science and those preaching about what the science means. The science itself is (or should be) verifiable.
The opinions regarding what the science means? Quite variable :)
Good one, DMT.
Thanks for the Asimov, Malemute.
Thanks for presenting the scientific mindset so well, Base.
Ed, Thanks for being an example that the scientist, philosopher, and mystic can be one.
Can Evolution Have A Higher Purpose?
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/12/opinion/can-evolution-have-a-higher-purpose.html
Musings of the evolutionary biologist William Hamilton.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 12, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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And it is these ignorant people, the most uneducated, the most unimaginative, the most unthinking among us, who would make themselves the guides and leaders of us all; who would force their feeble and childish beliefs on us; who would invade our schools and libraries and homes. I personally resent it bitterly.
Again, not denying the validity of science and its method. In fact, I would say the human achievement of the scientific method is one of the hallmarks declaring the unique importance of human consciousness.
The problem here, for me, is the disregard of the wisdom that can be found in a variety of mythologies around the world as in the baby being thrown out with the bathwater. Imposition is neither wise nor appropriate, but because some leaders seek that kind of religious (most often a political need) imposition doesn't negate that mythology's wisdom.
"The starry sky above me and the moral law within." If you believe the Bible to be nothing more than "childish beliefs" you embrace a rather myopic understanding that excludes the richness of what it offers.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Dec 13, 2016 - 06:46pm PT
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Rick Perry Is the Wrong Choice for Energy Secretary,
Lawrence Krauss
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/13/opinion/rick-perry-is-the-wrong-choice-for-energy-secretary.html?smid=tw-share
"by far the largest part of the department’s budget involves the stewardship of nuclear weapons, and research and development associated with the nuclear weapons complex. Moreover, the Department of Energy is the chief source of support for research in the physical sciences in the United States, providing far more money than the National Science Foundation, and supporting, among other things, fundamental inquiry in areas ranging from particle physics to cosmology."
"Oops."
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Dec 13, 2016 - 06:53pm PT
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Rick Perry was quite a cut-up on Dancing With the Stars.
But no cigar.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Dec 14, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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Let Him Hear
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 11:15)
The Lord Jesus Christ must have considered this exhortation to be of great importance, for it appears eight times in the four gospels and seven times in Revelation, all as spoken by Christ Himself—as well as one more time apparently uttered by John (Revelation 13:9). It is urgent, therefore, that people not just “hear” God’s Word with their ears (“in one ear and out the other,” as the saying goes), but really hear it, with understanding minds and believing hearts and obedient lives.
It is most important, first of all, for unsaved men and women to respond to the gospel message in this way. Jesus said: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24). Hearing this message with believing minds and hearts means all the difference between heaven and hell.
But that’s just the beginning. Jesus also said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” (10:27-28). He not only promised us everlasting life when we first heard His voice, but also assures us that this life is truly everlasting and can never be taken away from us, as we continue to hear His voice in His Word.
Not only everlasting life, but resurrection life! “The hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth.” “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, . . . and the dead in Christ shall rise. . . : and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (5:28-29; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). He that hath ears, let him hear! HMM http://www.icr.org/article/9666/
...Do You Hear What I Hear?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Dec 14, 2016 - 02:50pm PT
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What do you think about faith, trust, empathy, commitment, love, hatred, will, various emotions, instincts that you cannot pin down materially?
You can study ethics, but it is more of a humanities problem than a hard science problem. Of those mentioned attributes, I can't imagine one of them that doesn't fall into the soft sciences of psychology and their ilk.
I don't think that psychology is a waste of time. I just consider it different from sciences where answers are clear.
Answers aren't clear in sociology. They are always statistical, and they always have exceptions. You can't measure those qualities as easily as the wattage ouput of the sun. It is very difficult to isolate a single human quality and measure it.
That is why they are called soft sciences. Because they can't be measured precisely, like the physical sciences can. I can't believe that you are saying this.
Technology is not the same thing as science. That needs to be clear in everyone's eyes. Technology might be based on scientific findings, but it is mainly engineering, which is applying science. Not doing raw research.
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