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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 03:57pm PT
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Patrick asked:
I would be curious what the hardest ground-up onsight climb is. Of a gear climb I presume; I'm curious too. As I said, some European guy free climbed, on-site from the ground up, something in the Black Canyon last year, 5.13, was it The Hallucinogen? That really got my attention.
If we keep the term of trad defined what it was and has been more or less agreed upon in this thread, then this kind of effort still has a name.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 17, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
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Truthfully, I probably glossed over it BC I don't have the attention span to read it. I have now, and I do agree for the most part, esp this :
"Bit by bit, over 30 years the concepts of negativity which guarded the trad ethos have diminished both in the lexicon and in relevance."
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 17, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
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then this kind of effort still has a name.
If it were up to me I would say either adventure climbing or traditional trad.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 17, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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OT in this thread
Adam Ondra
"On October 29th, 2012, Ondra flashed one of the Red River Gorge's hardest routes, Southern Smoke Direct (9a+/5.15a), suggesting the grade of 9a/5.14d. This ascent represents the first 9a/5.14d flashed in history.
On November 1, he onsighted Pure Imagination and The Golden Ticket, both 9a/5.14d, suggesting the grade of 8c+/5.14c.
On February 7, 2013, Ondra sent La Dura Dura, in Oliana, Spain, his second 9b+/5.15c after Change. He worked on this project with Chris Sharma and the first ascent took Ondra nine weeks of work.
On February 9, 2013, just two days after La Dura Dura, Ondra succeeded in the second ascent of the 9b/5.15b Fight or flight, first climbed by Sharma in 2011.
As of 2013, he climbed 1,024 routes between 8a/5.13b and 9b+/5.15c (479 onsights including several at 8c+)."
Wikipedia
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 04:19pm PT
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Then Patrick suggested:
Then, the practice formerly known as trad becomes adventure climbing. A proud tradition to be sure, but now an aspect of trad and an aspect of the larger sport as a whole. As you have said, a point on a continuum. At this point, adventure climbing may have more in common with alpine climbing than modern trad because the grades are less important than the adventure, risk, and well... just surviving!
And this is what it really boils down to: usage of and the definition of Trad probably is not going to be defined, retained, nor redefined here in this thread such that it affects all of US climbing.
Changes in usage happen over time and through cultural habit, or accretion; through lots of people tacitly agreeing simply through repetition. No matter what we might say here about trad's definition outstripping its original, and likewise that we would prefer that it didn't describe something significantly different than what it once meant, if modern climbers are referring to the cutting-edge efforts of free climbing such as goes on with El Capitan today as trad, then that's what trad is today.
Old trad has perhaps already been redefined, or needs to be redefined, as adventure climbing or some such. Frankly I really wouldn't know if this is the case that it has already been redefined so, and for a number of years now, because I'm not running in those circles at the cutting-edge of free climbing.
In fact: the whole reason I started this thread was because we had another one about a Rock and Ice article which referred to a head point climb done in Scotland, or Great Britain, as TRAD. So, smart ass that I am, and as well truly interested and invested in stimulating discussion, I started this thread.
I am referring to this thread below, wherein the very definition of trad appears to changed:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2107529/fixed-pitons-are-trad-and-rad
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 17, 2013 - 04:26pm PT
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And it's still one of the best threads around. Making distinctions still counts. Everything is not equal. Thanks for the thread!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
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You are quite welcome Marlow!
And please do not think I didn't take a hard look at your "sliding scales " upthread earlier!
I'm now going to take a walk on my skis, lie down in the fluffy white stuff and make some snow angels.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
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I like what Patrick and Tar are discussing about the difference in trying to title modern trad vs. "traditional" trad. If I may try to water it down in a feeble attempt: Older trad seems to be more of a mental adventure in spirit where as modern trad, if it can be called as such is more physical. I'm not sure how to label run out rap bolted routes as Patrick descrbes as those seem to me to bring an "artificial" mentality In order to give those climbs a more " traditional" feel and while I'm sure most will not dispute the physical merits of these routes, I'm skeptical as to whether artificial run outs are of the same mental quality as the old routes. As was mentioned on the "The Gift from Wyoming" thread, some were skeptical of not making it safer by adding more bolts since it's a rap route. This makes for a much riskier adventure and although it may give the look and feel of old school trad, it is not artiface because it was put up in a much safer, sport climb way. So I like the label of trad as described by Tar and adventure as described by Patrick and that they are indeed different. To this day, no amount of physicality gained through modern technique has been able to guide a repeat of climbs like Burning Down The House (so is it really only 11+ ir is it not as hard as any modern face climb sport or otherwise?). Destinctions, as Tar says.
Edit: Warbler beat me to it!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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Climbing 5.11 crack on nuts was often a life or death proposition.
John Yablonski
Those among us who learned nutcraft do have a unique appreciation of doubling it up and running it out. Sometimes the only way to keep the pump at bay.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 17, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 06:40pm PT
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I believe it's important, in the end, not to focus so much on the definitions and the rules of trad, which are externalities, but on what they confer to the climber who appeals to them.
The reason I support Warbler's wish that the term retain its original meaning, is that it points the climber toward a particular type of experience. When the distinction or meaning of a term is lost or changed, it isn't so unlikely overtime for a culture to lose touch with the essence of the experience it circumscribes.
Here is a repost of a short piece which I wrote in pursuit of defining the internal experience of trad; of characterizing the internal tonality rendered by climbing TRAD™ ♥:
In a nutshell, in the passage below, I am trying to answer the simple question, why is trad good for us?
I tend to favor traditional climbing. For me there is a certain tension to the energy afforded by on-site ground-up climbing. Largo's "experiential voltage" if you will. Given my background and experience, the majority of sport climbs under the 5.12 grade tend to have too many bolts, the outcome is predictable and the exercise feels repetitive, such that the experience of leading the route lacks a certain zest.
Done from the ground up and on sight, a successfully achieved ascent has a very palatable internal energetic feel. The construct of a sport climb, which encompasses things like rappelling and succinct prior knowledge, a fairly sanitized and very safe protection scheme, and in a subtle way, yes even the communal lore of its construction -for me, these things sever the energetic tension of the route. We typically know how a route was originally done and I say that does matter. In ground-up style climbing, there is an aspect of emulation at play which is quite valuable.
When Werner says the route has a soul he's describing that energetic tension that exists for the route as a possibility. I get it more as a collusion of my internal striving with the canvas which the route represents. So for me it's a relationship and I like for that energy to be as fresh and whole as possible and ground-up climbing, whether I'm doing the first ascent or following in the footsteps of a pre-established ascent, the ground up traditional style effort does the best job of retaining that essence, best characterized as a completeness and a continuity, like an independent living thing.
So that's my sense of the peculiarly distinct internal reward conferred through trad climbing. It is something that should not be overrun. It's an artistic imperative that has fewer and fewer voices and outlets in our urbanized, formalized society. Spontaneous, fluid improvisation : we need to keep that heart alive and beating.
In a thread this big, I'm thinking a repost isn't so out of line.
And although this was written specifically as a counterpoint to sport climbing, it also points to an experience which is distant from what seems to be the modern evolution of trad climbing. So it needs a name in my opinion. Without a name, the distinction is lost, and without the distinction the thing is lost.
Disclaimer: This is purely a characterization of my experiences with trad and is not intended to impugn the preferences of sport climbers,
Nor is it an indictment or criticism of current cutting-edge free climbing practices, whatever their stripe.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
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I am but an egg in this discussion but I'm just so excited. More then anything I've been trying to figure out why the thread is so popular. What did you tap into Tar? Was it timing? Pining for a simpler time? Hmmm. Whatever, it's great!
Interesting to note that when this thread seems to come full circle, some important spin off seems to appear to keep it going unlike so many other threads to wit:
A definition. Getting closer but then.......
I think people forget how physical placing hexes on steep parallel sided cracks is. and further Climbing 5.11 crack on nuts was often a life or death proposition.
John Yablonski Shouldn't the definition include the use of technology i.e. gear? Because the consensus and input seems to definitely use gear in any discourse or discussion of what trad is.
Warblers definition is beautiful in it's direct precision and simplicity but should it not include the a definition of the use of gear to distinguish it further from say free soloing which by definition does not use gear? And then should this not lead to further discussion on the nature of gear as it relates to what trad is?
Dingus brought up an arguable point when he (paraphrasing) said that modern rubber has dumbed down climbing and I think Warbler said the same in the offwidth thread about cams and other devices doing the same.
But where I enter into discourse with you both is in how modern gear relates to trad climbing as defined by Warbler. Because although I agree that modern gear has certainly changed the nature of established climbs, I think the use of modern gear, when used under Warblers definition to establish new, ground up, non aid, non preview adventure is cutting edge. It allows for further mental and physical expression to advance without compromising what trad is.
When Hartouni and Gable establish a ground up climb,placing bolts from stances, no aid in the cracks, onsite, is it breaking tradition to wear modern rubber and to use cams? When those of us establish ground up, non aid, non preview/non cleaning onsite bolting from stances with modern rubber is it breaking tradition? Or do we need to use period pieces and equipment to remain genuinely trad?
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micronut
Trad climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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Great thread.
This is Trad for sure. That's all I know.
So is this guy. For sure.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 17, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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Why not name the new style adventure climbing - doesn't that make more sense?
Adventure climbing does have an amusement park, non-threatening like ring, but then so does 'sport climbing.' I've heard trad described as ground-up climbing, which sounds better than adventure climbing.
I see your point, and it does make sense to keep the original word to the define the practice being described. However, I would counter that having a narrower definition of 'ground-up' climbing to define what used to be trad may keep the definition from being watered down by asking it to encompass too much of what is now the whole of the climbing-on-gear experience.
Time will tell what sticks... It will probably stay as 'trad' broadly defining a spirit of risky climbing including strict ground-up ethics to pre-inspection and bolts on rappel. The word 'climbing' already encompasses too many aspects (mountaineering and bouldering have little to do with each other) of the sport, so having a particular branch that may be too broad perhaps isn't an issue.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 08:54pm PT
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I've already heard the term adventure climbing applied to The Black Canyon.
Does the new generation really want to define what they are doing as trad?
Usually emerging generations like to distinguish themselves, no?
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 09:37pm PT
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Nutcraft and the "environmental" Trad Connection.
Western Climber asked:
Or do we need to use period pieces and equipment to remain genuinely trad?
Agree here with Kevin, that the nature of the gear itself is not the fulcrum of the experience.
But it's a springboard to examine what is valuable about nutcraft and the related skills that go along with it which helped inform the 70s trad climber's adaptability and self-reliance, which in turn encouraged minimalism and its benefits in adapting to a committing environment…
Mark force upthread said:
That's because Yabo so clearly understood and epitomized the principle that your experience of and expression of mastery of a medium are optimized by minimizing the technology!
"Given the vital importance of style we suggest that the keynote is simplicity."
Yvon Chouinard & Tom Frost
(I won't pretend to know what that means)
This stuff isn't just some glossy ideal that had a nice ring to it, no. I submit that at the cusp of the clean climbing revolution, a new sun began to rise; over the shoulder stuff lightened up, the climber became a fitter as opposed to a nailer and subtleties emerged in terms of the inherent demands and responses of moving quietly and controlled over serious ground. For starters it freed up a hand, which was no small gain.
Less is more not simply because it ennobles. Less became more insomuch as scant protection opportunities, such as on the Middle Apron for example, or in any parallel crack when deciding whether it was really worth it to muddle about with hexes or not; all this instructed the climber to control her internal environment to bridge the gaps over harm' s way. It sharpened perception and honed the ability to read the rock in pursuit of safe placement; all this under a time constraint.
Not to get all old guy on it: but learning to climb on nuts made cam selection a snap. When I look at the crack, having grown up with the number six stopper as opposed to the equivalent cam, I discern a variance with closer tolerance, if you will. As a consequence, I don't need cams with lots of range and excess weight.
Wiggling hexes into a crack was a thing one did whenever possible; as allowed by pumping forearms not merely through availability of placement. The vertical nut craft engineer had to apportion her resources much more carefully while making upward progress. This in turn imbued her with the ability to deal with less, thus the "diet rack'' ... and this out of need, not just from some arcane longing to demonstrate a minimalist proficiency.
This is why I like Eldorado climbing so much! That terrain presents a multiplicity of variables in terms of physical vectors to be considered when handling the rock because the holds point in all different directions, finicky protection opportunities confront the climber, engaging "the fitter" within, presenting the immediate need to grasp a kaleidoscopic puzzle.
In short, it's a long way from plug and go with nuts. So this has a lot to do with the unique perspective of the early trad climber. So, trad encompasses a minimalist ethic, not just because of what it doesn't do to the rock, but because nuts were a minimal artifice with minimal effect. That strengthened the climber's internally derived adaptive mechanism! This in turn developed self-reliance in the face of fear; much like the alpinist, though comparatively still more on the level of craft or game.
So when we speak of the environmental impact of trad climbing, it's not on a global level, it just didn't impact the environment much and that schoolyard spits out little boys and girls who develop a liking for minimal artifice when they step into the rock arena. As Gollum says "give it to me raw and wriggling".
All this isn't to say the modern climber can't just take all the terrific mechanisms available and do the same thing, but it explains why people today are much more likely to be over-geared. This, simply because in most cases they just haven't been exposed to a slim quiver as the only option. Back in the day, light was right simply because there was no other choice. That informed all of the systems; remember Chouinard when he espoused dispensing with the 10 essentials? Bring bivi gear and you will bivi? Well we were doing the same with our racks.
So this is where "rope, rack, and the shirts on our backs" came from more or less. We were used to minimal artifice in terms of gear, so our mentality was already imbued with minimalism and we eschewed other stuff when it came to longer free routes as a natural extension to climbing unfettered and quick. I believe that quote comes from guys who used to get it on in the Black Canyon. Light machinery is the ticket to speed in the corners.
Again, not to say that the modern adepts don't figure all this out in short order; but it was really the only game in town during The Golden Age of Trad. In short, that nutcraft stuff was often crap and one had to behave in kind. So all of this informs the development of the trad ethos. Form really and truly did follow function, yet it was the form of the climber. And so I'm saying the tail really wagged the dog. This is another reason why this whole trad thing is not immediately transferable to the modern vernacular.
WesternClimber! Thanks!
I needed a queue to trot that one out ...
A young Master Tar, looking unusually bricked for the times.
Seen here in attendance at the prestigious adolescent boarding program: School of Hard Chocks, Joshua Tree California, 1976
photo Larry Stone
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 18, 2013 - 12:21am PT
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Beautiful Tar...The question was posed because I knew others could answer better then I...I hate gear because I'm in the trades and have to wear the tool belt all week and the last thing I want is to lug it. I love the idea of using gear as a tool to free one's self from it. And, as you state, the more I know the less I take. Like a sprinter who uses the gym to simply run faster with nothing but a pair of shoes.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Apr 18, 2013 - 03:36am PT
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Beautiful quote! [edit: referring to a quote now deleted - should a copied that to this post!] Cool thread as far as the bits I've been lucky to catch while it grows rapidly exponentially...
Without taking away from any other style of climbing, trad seems climbing that is all heart, calling on our truest grit because so much rides on our best effort. So it is with soloing, but for many, none of this is worth risking too much.
Nothing against routes first done in another "style," but Groundup is the only style of fa that actually is climbing and in good measure why there's no real comparison.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 18, 2013 - 10:12am PT
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I've seen things you people wouldn't believe ...
Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion.
I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.
All those moments will be lost in time, like … tears in rain.
Time to die.
A different Roy ... Another dream.
C'est moi, circa early 1977, the day of my first 5.10, though not on lead.
Sportin' a wig purloined at a Morongo Valley thrift store.
The ensemble included a darling pair of earings, which I lost to Mike Paul, after I wagered he couldn't do StemGem, backwards, blindfolded...
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holyshootdude
Social climber
santacruz mountains
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Apr 18, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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trad is when you climb route, upward, downward,no rope, with a traquille soul...thats what they said in to old days
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