Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
|
|
The man with a book telling me to believe for sure is more than just his book. There's the man and his life experiences, those belong to him. The book is his also. The experiences, some, might be helpful to me. I can take or leave the rest. I chose to leave the rest.
As Base mentioned, the difficulty in trying to wrap the brain around the concept of nonexistence is more than just difficult. It is loss and we recoil from it like the hot flame. I never was before and ever shall not be. This I believe, simple. Joined and separated particles of matter, simple. Awake, asleep, happens every day.
Breathe in, breathe out, and then finally, breathe out.
Out,
-bushman
11/02/2016
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
Another way of looking at death is that the finiteness of life is precisely what makes it incredibly sweet and beautiful.
...well, maybe except for maybe some of the sucky parts.
Oh, yeah, that is the contrast which gives context.
“Death is the only wise advisor that we have. Whenever you feel, as you always do, that everything is going wrong and you're about to be annihilated, turn to your death and ask if that is so. Your death will tell you that you're wrong; that nothing really matters outside its touch. Your death will tell you, 'I haven't touched you yet.”
~ Don Juan
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
finiteness of life
There's no such thing ever existed, nor has there ever been such a thing as finiteness of life, nor will there ever be such a thing as finiteness of life ever.
Life comes from life and never ever dies ......
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
Werner, you're awesome!
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
The devil is not our friend...
Jesus and the Fact of Hell
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.” (Matthew 25:41)
How can it be that Jesus Christ, who taught so strongly the importance of love and forgiveness, could speak such words as these? Actually, Jesus had more to say about hell and eternal punishment than any other speaker or writer in the Bible. Since He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16), the coming Judge (John 5:22), and the only man who has died and risen permanently from the dead (2 Corinthians 5:14-15), we would do well to believe and heed His warnings. He knows whereof He speaks!
Listen to these prophecies, for example: “So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 13:49-50). “If thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:47-48). There are other such warnings from Christ, but how can we reconcile such threats of everlasting doom with His own nature of love?
The fact is, however, that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, not for people. The devil has been a rebel against God since the beginning, wanting to be his own god. When people follow the devil in this same rebellious path, rejecting God’s Word, they are showing they would be more comfortable with Satan than with Christ in eternity. Therefore Christ, because of His great love, has repeatedly warned them of what is coming, and so should we. “Of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire” (Jude 1:22-23). HMM
http://www.icr.org/article/9602/
God Does Not Author Evil
by Henry M. Morris III, D.Min.
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” (James 1:13-14)
One of the often-used excuses for rejecting the God of the Bible is if God is omnipotent (as the Bible teaches), and since evil exists in the world (as everyone can see), then God must be the author of evil or incapable of preventing it. Either way, such reasoning insists, that kind of God is not worthy of worship.
If that logic were accurate, then most of the foundational truths of Scripture should be rejected. The Bible insists that the whole of reality was initially “very good” (Genesis 1:31) but was quickly marred by Lucifer’s lie and Adam’s rebellion (Genesis 3:14-17). The thrice-holy God (Isaiah 6:3) has no pleasure in wickedness (Psalm 5:4), does not tempt any man with evil (James 1:13), and loves righteousness and hates wickedness (Psalm 45:7).
God does not cause evil. The Archenemy, Satan, is the father of untruth (John 8:44) and was the source of the deception of Eve (2 Corinthians 11:3) and the rebellion of Adam that brought sin and death into the creation (Romans 5:12).
The most precise description of the all-consuming character of the Creator God is that “God is light, and in him is no darkness at all” (1 John 1:5). There can be no impurity or inconsistency within the nature of the Godhead. The holy separateness of the Creator is such that no thing, no concept, no act, no thought can ever cause a break within the absolute light of our eternal God. HMM III
http://www.icr.org/article/god-does-not-author-evil/
"Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands."
Isaiah 49:16
No doubt a part of the wonder which is concentrated in the word "Behold," is excited by the unbelieving lamentation of the preceding sentence. Zion said, "The Lord hath forsaken me, and my God hath forgotten me." How amazed the divine mind seems to be at this wicked unbelief! What can be more astounding than the unfounded doubts and fears of God's favoured people? The Lord's loving word of rebuke should make us blush; he cries, "How can I have forgotten thee, when I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands? How darest thou doubt my constant remembrance, when the memorial is set upon my very flesh?" O unbelief, how strange a marvel thou art! We know not which most to wonder at, the faithfulness of God or the unbelief of his people. He keeps his promise a thousand times, and yet the next trial makes us doubt him. He never faileth; he is never a dry well; he is never as a setting sun, a passing meteor, or a melting vapour; and yet we are as continually vexed with anxieties, molested with suspicions, and disturbed with fears, as if our God were the mirage of the desert. "Behold," is a word intended to excite admiration. Here, indeed, we have a theme for marvelling. Heaven and earth may well be astonished that rebels should obtain so great a nearness to the heart of infinite love as to be written upon the palms of his hands. "I have graven thee." It does not say, "Thy name." The name is there, but that is not all: "I have graven thee." See the fulness of this! I have graven thy person, thine image, thy case, thy circumstances, thy sins, thy temptations, thy weaknesses, thy wants, thy works; I have graven thee, everything about thee, all that concerns thee; I have put thee altogether there. Wilt thou ever say again that thy God hath forsaken thee when he has graven thee upon his own palms?
CHARLES SPURGEON
...Jesus bares the nail prints of love on His hands!
|
|
Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
|
|
"The fact of hell"
What fact?
Yeah, God doesn't have to help us out on the evil thing. Seems like we're capable enough on our own.
|
|
Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
|
|
God does not cause evil. The Archenemy, Satan, is the father of untruth (John 8:44) and was the source of the deception of Eve (2 Corinthians 11:3) and the rebellion of Adam that brought sin and death into the creation (Romans 5:12).
In that case you're giving up God's omnipotence. If you're saying Satan is capable subverting God's Will by corrupting man and enacting evil, then Satan is at least equally powerful to your god. I'd also point out that we have Satan to thank for our humanity and free will. Were it not for the Fall, then Adam and Eve would still be just chillin in the Garden of Eden for all eternity, and the world and everyone in it wouldn't exist.
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
God gave free will to His creation to follow Him and when we didn't He sent His son Jesus to restore us but it won't be until the glory of the New Jerusalem when we all will be one with His will!
Revelation 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
So Byran thanks himself for putting himself in jail and thinks he's happy there losing his real freedom .......
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, Satan, God. They are equivalent in their realness.
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
If Lucifer is literally the "light bearer" how can he encourage evil?
Apparently, this "name" was a caustic reference to Nebuchadnezzar in the Hebrew Bible. Not another name for Satan.
Now, Satan may be a different matter.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
In that case you're giving up God's omnipotence. If you're saying Satan is capable subverting God's Will by corrupting man and enacting evil, then Satan is at least equally powerful to your god. I'd also point out that we have Satan to thank for our humanity and free will. Were it not for the Fall, then Adam and Eve would still be just chillin in the Garden of Eden for all eternity, and the world and everyone in it wouldn't exist.
This would not be correct.
God gave man dominion over the material universe. So man can choose what path he/she wants to follow. Lucifer was God's highest angel and was not intended to live in the material universe, but to be a guide/helper for those in the material universe. But through free will choice Lucifer chose to rebel against God's will, and was thus no longer able to resonate with the energy of Heaven and in effect cast himself out of Heaven, and ended up here. The material universe does not resonate at as high a level as Heaven. And so now Lucifer resides in the material universe and as man, has dominion over the things of the material universe. Dominion does not necessarily mean that one automatically has the power to say.. change the path of the sun. Though if we could build a big enough bomb, then we could do it. Which is what in this case dominion means. We can destroy or we can create. Its our choice. That in no way equates to being equal to God. We can only create within the boundaries of what God has given us.
I'm sure many people disagree with this. Even those who believe in God. That is each persons choice. I am not trying to proselytize. I am only trying to explain my understanding.
Edit: I do not agree with Werner's stated understanding of how evil came to be. At least as i understand it.
|
|
Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
|
|
If Lucifer is literally the "light bearer" how can he encourage evil?
Apparently, this "name" was a caustic reference to Nebuchadnezzar in the Hebrew Bible. Not another name for Satan.
Now, Satan may be a different matter.
If Lucifer is Nebuchadnezzar, then maybe Satan is the greek giant Enceladus?
--
The ancient mythologists tell us that the race of Giants made war against Jupiter, and that one of them threw a hundred rocks against him at one throw; that Jupiter defeated him with thunder, and confined him afterwards under Mount Etna; and that every time the Giant turns himself, Mount Etna belches fire. It is here easy to see that the circumstance of the mountain, that of its being a volcano, suggested the idea of the fable; and that the fable is made to fit and wind itself up with that circumstance.
The Christian mythologists tell that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterwards, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan
[...]
The Christian mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the garden of Eden in the shape of a snake, or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no ways surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tate is, that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.
After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the church mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit, or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him, (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain) or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women, and doing more mischief. But instead of this, they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole. The secret of which is, that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology?
[...]
In order to make for it a foundation to rise upon, the inventors were under the necessity of giving to the being whom they call Satan a power equally as great, if not greater, than they attribute to the Almighty. They have not only given him the power of liberating himself from the pit, after what they call his fall, but they have made that power increase afterwards to infinity. Before this fall they represent him only as an angel of limited existence, as they represent the rest. After his fall, he becomes, by their account, omnipresent. He exists everywhere, and at the same time. He occupies the whole immensity of space.
Not content with this deification of Satan, they represent him as defeating by stratagem, in the shape of an animal of the creation, all the power and wisdom of the Almighty. They represent him as having compelled the Almighty to the direct necessity either of surrendering the whole of the creation to the government and sovereignty of this Satan, or of capitulating for its redemption by coming down upon earth, and exhibiting himself upon a cross in the shape of a man.
Had the inventors of this story told it the contrary way, that is, had they represented the Almighty as compelling Satan to exhibit himself on a cross in the shape of a snake, as a punishment for his new transgression, the story would have been less absurd, less contradictory. But, instead of this they make the transgressor triumph, and the Almighty fall.
"Age of Reason", Thomas Paine
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
How Can a Man Be Just before God?
by Henry M. Morris, Ph.D.
“Then Job answered and said, I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?” (Job 9:1-2)
Job was the most “just” (i.e., “righteous”) man of his age, according to the testimony of God Himself (Job 1:8; 2:3), yet his friends insisted his terrible suffering had been sent by God because of his sins. He knew he was innocent of the sins of which they were accusing him, and he knew he had earnestly tried to be obedient and faithful to God. Yet, he also knew that he, like all men, had come far short of God’s holiness (Romans 3:23). “I have sinned,” he confessed, “what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men?” (Job 7:20). “Cause me to understand wherein I have erred” (Job 6:24). And then comes the plaintive plea in our text: “How should a man be just with God?”
There is, indeed, no way by which a man can make himself righteous before God, for he is even born with a sin nature, inherited from father Adam. “If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse” (Job 9:20). Yet God created man for His own glory (Isaiah 43:7) and wants “all men to be saved” (1 Timothy 2:4). The great enigma is, how can God justify unrighteousness in men and still be righteous Himself.
The answer, of course, is that God, in Christ, has paid the price to make us righteous by dying for all our sins. “God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). “In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace” (Ephesians 1:7).
Even Job finally realized that God must somehow become his redeemer. “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and . . . in my flesh shall I see God” (Job 19:25-26). It is indeed wonderfully true that God can both “be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus” (Romans 3:26). HMM
http://www.icr.org/article/9605/
Jesus is the "X" Factor!
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
You really believe all of that dopey stuff GoB?
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
Hook line and sinker!
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
Reading this thread you'd think there was nothing more to religion than doctrine. It's the external object of religion we can get hold of. The rest - the crux of it, IME - has nothing to do with beliefs or ideas or any thing "out there." There is no answer per what "it" is.
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
...You can hang your hat on it!
Edit;...Acts 17:24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’
|
|
jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
|
|
I agree with John. Religion must have a truly spiritual component that lies beyond simple dogma. I've always felt that amongst Christian faiths Catholicism has a mystical element that the Baptist and Methodist strains lack.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!