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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Oct 10, 2016 - 04:22pm PT
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Thanks.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 10, 2016 - 05:39pm PT
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Progress on the march...
The malaria death rate in sub-Saharan Africa has dropped by a stunning 57% since 2000. This progress is no accident.
https://www.gatesnotes.com
"We have another potential game-changer in the works. Our foundation is supporting scientists who are using a powerful new tool called “genome editing” to introduce genetic changes in the Anopheles gambiae species of mosquito, one of the most effective transmitters of malaria in Africa. These genetic edits cause females to produce mostly male, sterile offspring. In theory, scientists could drive this trait throughout entire populations of mosquitoes in much of Africa, dramatically reducing malaria transmission in a very short time. While I’m excited about the potential of this technology, I know that changing the mosquito genome in a permanent way is something that should be done only with incredible caution and care. My hope is that it will be possible to deploy some version of this technique in a safe manner within 10-12 years." -Gates
http://endmalaria2040.org/
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Oct 12, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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Well, Go-B, thanks for praying for my doomed soul. It certainly can't hurt me.
I'm dead serious when I say that I do not want to change your mind. Obviously many people find deep comfort in Religion. I'm not Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris. I'm not in the business of destroying religion. I *am* against a Christian government in this country though. BIG TIME.
Imagine a strict interpretation of the Old Testament as the basis for all laws, and us being subject to 3000 year old religious ideas. Hey, we could bring back stoning. The basic tenets of the fundamentalists are this:
The inerrancy of the Bible
The literal nature of the biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
The virgin birth of Christ
The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross
Right now, in public schools, evolution is being taught in high school biology classes, and that conflicts with the first two tenets above. I have a couple of friends who found God, and home schooled their kids to avoid that Biology class. Many others feel the same way.
Look at the Middle East, where the countries are generally Islamic. Turkey and Jordan are tolerant of others, but not Saudi Arabia. If you got caught giving away Bibles there, you would be beheaded, despite their status as allies.
Look at the fighting between Sunni and Shia.
Iran has grown stronger because WE as freaking IDIOTS, supported Nouri al-Maliki as President. He was a Shia, and promptly removed the Sunni's from government and Army positions, totally alienating them. That is why the Army refused to fight ISIS. ISIS is Sunni/Wahabi dominated. The army of Sunni soldiers saw ISIS as the lesser evil compared to Maliki's purge of Sunni's from the government and their jobs. They weren't going to fight for the Shia's. Obama made it clear that we wouldn't help Iraq until al-Maliki was gone. Hell, he had to. Under al-Maliki, Iran was making Iraq its own territory. Iran is Shia and Persian. The rest of the Arab world is mainly Sunni and Arab.
They HATE the Shia, and now Shia Iran is supporting these Iraqi Shia Militia groups, who ARE taking the fight to ISIS. We can't support them, so this makes for a huge problem. The Saudi's are watching Iraq become Shia dominated, and are itching for a fight with Iran. They see Iran as their biggest nightmare, especially with Nukes. They have pushed us to go to war with Iran already.
So the Arab/Persian world is in a subtle religious civil war. Sunni vs. Shia. Do you know the difference between the two? They differ over their relations to the sons of the Prophet Muhammad:
According to Sunni tradition, Muhammad did not clearly designate a successor and the Muslim community acted according to his sunnah in electing his father-in-law Abu Bakr as the first caliph. This contrasts with the Shi'a view, which holds that Muhammad intended his son-in-law and cousin Ali ibn Abi Talib to succeed him. Political tensions between Sunnis and Shias continued with varying intensity throughout Islamic history and they have been exacerbated in recent times by ethnic conflicts and the rise of Wahhabism
Yeah, ISIS is nearly an extension of Wahhabi Saudi Arabia. The Saudi's don't think that they are a huge threat. They are freaked out over Iran right now. ISIS is barely on their radar.
It sounds silly to us, but imagine the Mormons or the Baptists taking over this country, and imposing their views. Other Christian sects would resist, and if everyone had an AK under their bed, we would be having the same problems. Christians killing Christians, and stoning non believers along the way. Jesus taught forgiveness and compassion, but Pat Robertson doesn't talk that way. Yeah, I watch him on the 700 club now and then. He is a nut.
So a Secular society is the only sane way to govern. Pretty much every modern government is secular, and thank goodness for that.
We are seeing a goat-f*#k happening in the world of Islam. The politics of fighting ISIS are crazy. Shias and Kurds are the only ones fighting them, and Turkey hates the Kurds. Iran is supporting the Shias with arms. We can't be seen supporting them. We've tried to train a Sunni army, but it was a farce. We do support the Kurds, but when we do, Turkey cuts off our use of their air bases.
Dudes. Just look at this mess. It is all founded on religion. Any sane person would wish that these countries would stop being such extremists, settle down, and become sanely secular. Stable, whether they are democracies or not.
Now imagine someone like Pat Robertson being the President of the United States, with the Congress and Senate consisting of nothing but right wing Christians. It would screw up this country in an instant.
A "Christian Country" is the mother of all bad ideas. Our secular tolerance would give way to an ocean of intolerance. Anyone who thinks that this is a good idea just needs to look at the Middle East.
Thank goodness that Christians don't go around bombing places very often. So far it has been restricted to abortion clinics and gay bars. Remember Eric Rudolph?
We see extremists in Israel. They go out and build settlements on contentious land, because they believe it is God's will. This has hugely harmed the peace process with the Palestinians, who if you think about it, have been screwed since the end of WWII. We pay hugely for supporting Israel. They should at least be thankful, and more tolerant.
So anyone who thinks that religious rule is a good idea oughta speak up, because I'm armed for bear.
It never works. In distant past, we saw the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, it is all there.
We have freedom of religion in this country, and it is one our greatest sources of freedom for all.
Freedom FROM religion if need be.
Pat Robertson owns the Christian Broadcasting Network, and all it takes is 5 seconds of Googling to come up with his insane statements.
He ran for president, if you all recall. He had this to say about Methodists. I was raised a Methodist. He says it is the way of the Anti-Christ:
On "The 700 Club" Robertson said, "You say you're supposed to be nice to the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians and the Methodists and this, that, and the other thing. Nonsense. I don't have to be nice to the spirit of the Antichrist. I can love the people who hold false opinions but I don't have to be nice to them."
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 12, 2016 - 04:51pm PT
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The true enemy of science is not religion necessarily, but faith. Faith is also one of mankind's biggest scourges, now as always. Nothing raises my hackles more than when someone ascribes goodness to faith. On the contrary, mostly bad things come from faith. It is almost an antonym to science.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 12, 2016 - 06:23pm PT
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It's really so glaring isn't it, eeyonkee?
Sometimes I can be amazed the US holds itself together as well as it does.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Oct 12, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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Concerning the common claim by many people that the US is a christian nation...
Based on the Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights and Constitution we are most definitely a secular nation albeit 70.6% Christian by demographic.
When you look for reference to Jesus, Christ, Old Testament, New Testament, Torah (the old testament), religion, church or God you will find only these following refernces-
Declaration of Independence
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
Bill of Rights
"Article the third...Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Constitution
Article V1 - "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
That's it.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Oct 12, 2016 - 08:44pm PT
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The true enemy of science is not religion necessarily, but faith.
Ah, yes, some have to much faith in their science. It's a shame to undermine good science by having faith in it.
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John M
climber
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Oct 13, 2016 - 11:13am PT
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edit: Ack.. DMT typed faster then I did.
have ye faith in your medical diagnosis based on scientific "facts".
Ulcers are caused by stress.
Oh, wait!
My bad.
That was a theory. Not a "fact".
Ulcers are caused by a bacterium.
Yes, there is no faith in Science. No theories/beliefs which people act on. Just "facts".
LOL..
Or wait.. is it just that doctors aren't using science. And instead are using witchcraft? Inquiring minds want to know.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 13, 2016 - 11:37am PT
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It's the rebirth of Dr Failed into Craig Fried ........
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 13, 2016 - 11:49am PT
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In regards to "faith"...
I wish more "science types" (scientists to scienteers) would grow in their conversation and (a) not fall into (or else remain in) religious framing and (b) distinguish between evidence-based faith and nonevidence-based faith (aka religious faith or Christian faith).
One of my personal favorite egs of evidence-based faith is when I'm driving and about to make a u-turn. I look in my rear-view mirror, see that it's clear and then make the turn. That is evidence-based faith (aka trust) that the rear-view mirror is giving me an accurate report on the road being clear. Note it is an evidence-based faith that potentially has life and death csqs if it is not accurate.
But, alas, it looks like this won't change even amongst science types for some time to come. Such is the power of religious context (religious framing of thought and language) and the desire of everybody but the most rebellious to (continue to) converse in religious theistic Christian terms.
As a rebel/maverick in belief, educated and trained over many years, I have no problem with "faith" when it is evidence-based faith and I am conversing with like-minded folk.
I'm a believer in evidence-based medicine.
I'm a believer in evidence-based trust (aka evidence-based faith).
Religious faith, as promoted by Christian Abrahamic religion, is dead - dead - as any kind of value, pursuit or mindset in the 21st century among educated thoughtful demographics.
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Does anyone not know what "religious framing" is?
"Faith" like "trust" and "belief" are simply too good as English words to leave to any fundamentalist Abrahamic supernaturalism. It's time they are fully modernized by not leaving them to religion.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 13, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
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Faith: Believing in something without evidence.
Science: Requiring evidence for belief in anything and everything.
The problem with faith is that it is too subjective. If you were born in Saudi Arabia, I can assure you to a 90 percent confidence interval (maybe), that your rock-hard belief would be in Islam and not Christianity. And they definitely do not believe in the same things.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 13, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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So let me get this straight... you're not religious but you're content letting Christianity define the word "faith" one and only one way in religious terms?
You don't see the value in distinguishing between evidence-based faith and non-evidence-based faith?
You don't see the value in wresting "faith" back from Christianity?
"Faith: Believing in something without evidence."
That is but one definition - the one defined and promoted by Christianity for decades and decades and decades.
Think outside the (Christian) box.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Oct 13, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
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Everything is the evidence it's how you look at it!
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.
3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 13, 2016 - 08:17pm PT
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Someone was bound to post this from Wiki:
Faith is confidence or trust in a person or thing that is not seen; or the observance of an obligation from loyalty; or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement; or a belief not based on proof; or it may refer to a particular system of religious belief,[1] such as in which faith is confidence based on some degree of warrant.[2][3] The term 'faith' has numerous connotations and is used in different ways, often depending on context
The first line says a lot. I have faith in the pronouncements of scientists like Ed.
It helps that microwave ovens work.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Oct 13, 2016 - 08:27pm PT
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Craig, it's not a matter of right and wrong. It's more a matter of recognizing that there are different ways of talking and that it doesn't always have to be from a Christian religious context.
I've said this before... when I hang from a one half inch line 300 feet above the deck I do so with an evidence-based trust... aka an evidence-based faith.
I only do so because I have trust in the system... Because I have faith in the system. It is not a religious faith... it is not a Christian faith... it is not a blind faith... it is an evidence-based faith.
It's such a funny strange and blatant thing... to those eager to move beyond a system... be it old time religion or even the Republican Party or whatever... a good first step is to stop using its language and terminology and definitions... I mean like... Duh!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Oct 14, 2016 - 12:50am PT
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Oct 14, 2016 - 07:23am PT
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^^^^^^^^
I have faith in you.
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