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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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"Can't you just say.....there may be a God and he may have created....let the kids think and ask questions."
Of course, no problem, I didn't address that.
I said that creationism is decadent. It is a denial of science. To promote creationism, especially in today's modern world, especially to do it over the internet, which has some undeniable, scientific roots, is, by definition, decadent. ie, disresgard of how you got there in the first place. To claim that it works, is to deny the medium on which you are communicating.
Believe what you want to believe, on your own time. To claim that creationism is science shows an ignorance of the meaning of the word science.
Science is apart from any religion's dogma. I'm an educator, this shitd bugs me!
We will, as a society, keep falling apart, if this nonsense keeps up.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:44pm PT
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Lynne-
Of course you're tough as nails! How could you possibly think otherwise?
Anyway, good to have you back. As you can see, we are moving right along.
Only 11,000 more posts to catch up to the Republican thread!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:53pm PT
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There are surely those better than myself to talk about science and the Big Bang. I'll horn in here because there is an underlying truth too seldom seen.
In the physical sciences there really are no absolutes. There is no absolute truth. If you have a model that predicts a measurement within one centimeter, you have no way of knowing the model will still be so right when your measurement's precision has improved to one billionth of a centimeter.
What is taught? At any time we have different models for any given phenomenon. One of the models will allow calculations of a measurable quantity that are better than the calculations of the other models. You learn science because you want to go out and do something. So if you want to go out and work on a particular problem, you have to learn all about the model that gives the best results for that problem.
It's that simple.
Our complaint about Intelligent Design, for example, is that it does not tell us anything. It does not lead to a better understanding of anything. We are stuck with what we have.
Let me run on a bit more. How might we make a scientific application of religion?
Let's say religion is an effort to improve the way we treat each other. Let's just say that. What would a technical person do?
First they would have to define a good way to quantify the goodness of the way we treat each other. There will be several candidates for this, of course.
Then they would go out and test the societies that employ different schemes for improving/controlling the way people treat each other and they will use each of these candidates on each society.
Then they would sit down and discuss the data to see what trends might be present and to see which of the candidates show good properties and under which conditions.
The next step is immensely important. Based on the data a small subset of the societies would have their rules changed.
Later data MIGHT show what any subsequent changes should do, and which of the candidates seem to work better.
It is a hard slow process. But there is no excitement which equals that which you get when a clear trend pops up. Something never before seen. It will never be exactly what you expected. That makes it even better.
Every day nature is trying to tell us how things work. I have seen cases where she had literally to scream in our ears before we would listen.
Pretty exciting finally to hear her voice.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:58pm PT
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Science: Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 02:59pm PT
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Gobee, you have posted links from a creationist, like yourself.
Finding someone who agrees with you proves nothing, we can all do that.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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"I have no need of Faith, I have experience." -Joseph Campbell
Pretty much the most spiritual person I have been in touch with.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:04pm PT
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But I'm not running to the dugout! Safe....
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:08pm PT
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Gobee, I am a card carrying jesus follower. I believe Every word he has spoken in the n. t.
I am hurried so only got to fly through your first link. Will inspect all thoroughly tonight when life calms down.
I am at a loss for words. Maybe because I have no tv or newspaper and live pretty simply. I did not know that evolution was trying to disprove God. I thought evolution was trying to put forth evolution as a theory for how all things that exist were created.
I personally believe God created all things....I just don't know how He did it. Peace,Lynne
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:09pm PT
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Jaybro-
Did you actually know Campbell? He's a big hero of mine. I have a couple dozen videos of his lectures and watch them every year or so. I have new insights every time.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:11pm PT
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"I personally believe God created all things....I just don't know how He did it."
Really who does? Your right on Lynn, keep'n it real! Your the BEST!
Edit; But God did His magic in six day's, no tricks!!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:18pm PT
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Jan, no. I met him once, and had some correspondence with him.
'I did not know that evolution was trying to disprove God." Me neither.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 03:19pm PT
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Lynee, "evolution" is NOT "trying to disprove god".
That is the us against them mentality of the creationist author Gobee selected.
Darwin, and future scientists, did not set out to disprove creationism.
Their intent was to seek scientific evidence that supported their assumption
that life evolved by natural selection.
In fact, a number of scientists who fully endorse evolution, also do
believe in some concept of "god", either a personal one, or overall creator.
This belief does not stop them at all from also believing that life evolved
on this planet by darwinian natural selection.
Scientists are far from "lazy", they spend their lives searching for truths.
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:25pm PT
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Somewhere upstream someone asked about the compatibility of evolution and Christian faith.
The Catholic Church allows for belief in both cosmological and biological evolution. In both cases, Catholic dogma states that God put things in motion. "While the Church permits belief in either special [Biblical] creation or developmental [evolutionary] creation on certain questions, it in no circumstances permits belief in atheistic evolution." In other words, the Big Bang was caused by God, and that at some point man evolved to the point where God gave him an eternal soul.
The Catholic Church is one branch of the Christian world that seems to allow a non-literal interpretation of the Bible.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:28pm PT
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Lots of religious beliefs are amenable to coexisting with evolution. It's those that don't that produce devo / decadence.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:37pm PT
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Ok, Malone, Dude, :DD, you bring up a point someone else mentioned about the soul....coming along at a later point. I guess it is a blessing to be simple.....like lynne.
A person born, a soul comes along with the package. No matter what age or era they come from.
You know when you read and re read etc. x times alot the bible..... I don't think God's main and major focus is so much on how he created or how long it took. (obtw I am of the how long is a day camp? Cause it does say in the bible that 1000 years is like a day to God. An example that time with God is not the same as time with a humanoide.)
To me the primary focus of God is 1)He wants a relationship with his creation and 2)He loves us and wants to spend eternity with us. Being God, 3) He made a provision for each of those things so they could happen.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Norton and Jaybro, will need to look more into the above links perhaps we can dialogue this evening. I was surprised at the information in the first link by McArthur as he is respected in the christian community. A puzzled, lynne
jstan, you've written some good stuff. Will adress tonight. Peace, lynne
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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"WERNER KNOWS BEST", he keeps me honest, and laugh'n to!
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Gene
Social climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 03:59pm PT
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Lynne,
A person born, a soul comes along with the package. No matter what age or era they come from. Yep!
The Catholic point of view is that evolution is not at odds with God. "Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul."
12 years of Catholic schooling. My sister's a nun. Dad's best friend is a Cardinal - not the baseball type. I am not a Catholic, although my kid attends a Catholic university. I was raised to be one. I have respect for their willingness to address these types of issues although I have huge disagreements with them in other matters of Faith.
What do I believe? God made it happen. Don't know how...
Malone
EDIT: "To me the primary focus of God is 1)He wants a relationship with his creation and 2)He loves us and wants to spend eternity with us. Being God, 3) He made a provision for each of those things so they could happen."
Amen, Lynne. Agreed.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Oct 15, 2009 - 04:00pm PT
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Gobee-
Beautiful scenes from Japan. The one with the fish looks like those I see every time I go snorkeling in Okinawa. The Mount of the Holy Cross brought back memories of Colorado vacations as a child. Unfortunately, there was a rock avalanche a few years back which destroyed the shape of the cross, so I'm happy to download your card as a momento. Thanks!
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