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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Feb 22, 2010 - 04:27pm PT
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Wes,
You ask a good question. You could levy a fuel tax regardless of whether or how you spend the money from the tax. My statement assumes that nothing else changes when you choose to spend public funds in one area (in this example, mass transit) to illustrate how opportunity cost works.
I've been working on developing a framework for measuring marginal costs and benefits of specific policies of this sort for several years, with very little to show for it. At least I'm not alone. Much of the literature recognizes the problem and the lack of a good methodology for determining solutions.
I orignally started this work in the hydrology area, because my daughter's college roommate and best friend is a grad student at Davis in hydrology, and was kind enough to send some good studies in my direction. Chiloe also pointed me to some useful references in the climatology and statistical areas a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, measurements of marginal costs and benefits has been just as elusive in hydrology and climatology as in any other area of welfare economics.
I can't spend much time on this (or, much sadder to say, climbing) at the moment because mytime is very squozen legal and economic consulting projects and my need to learn a bunch of piano accompaniments for several brass players by this weekend. At least these other projects have solutions -- and remuneration.
John
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2010 - 08:44pm PT
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For example, if we spend more on mass transit, we have less to spend on other things (which, depending on your values, could be health care, education, or national defense, e.g.)
I'd bet $100B spent on mass transit would go a long way (including job creation). But then, the banks would have collapsed if they only got $600B.
TreasonousAsswipesReapProfits
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 10:29am PT
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First off let's get one thing straight. I'm not a climate change skeptic.
I'm a climate change commissar skeptic. To wit note the current UN weather
meeting in Bali. Bali? Haven't these guys heard of email or are they just
a little gunshy of that now? As with the huge conference in Copenhagen
I would love to see the carbon footprint for the Bali meeting with most
every attendee having to fly about 15,000 miles roundtrip. If they just
want to escape the northern hemisphere why don't they meet in a nice warm
place like Cairo or some place that is really going to be affected by
rising sea levels like Dacca? I'm sure the room rates are much better in
those places too.
Oh, and apparently the talk at the conference is all about taking better
measurements. Yeah, that's gonna help..............employ more bureaucrats and commissars.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100224/ap_on_sc/climate_data
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:22am PT
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Oh, and apparently the talk at the conference is all about taking better
measurements. Yeah, that's gonna help
What do you recommend?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Feb 24, 2010 - 11:29am PT
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I recommend better family planning but I fear
the cat is long out of the bag on that front.
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dirtbag
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
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The entire issue is a red herring. Often it is suggested that those who are concerned about climate change should show they are not hypocrites by giving up electricity and moving into a cave.
"Because you're not living in a cave, you do not really think this is a problem."
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 12:40pm PT
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As someone who thinks more measurements are important, and who knows bureaucrats aren't the ones taking them, I was reminded by Reilly's remark of an interesting measurement program called ASOF (Arctic Subarctic Ocean Fluxes). I heard Bob Dickson give talks about it several times in the past but hadn't tracked down what they'd published. Reilly's comment inspired me to look that up. Interesting stuff, and this is real science.
We find that the entire system of overflow and entrainment that ventilates the deep Atlantic has undergone a remarkably rapid and remarkably steady freshening over the past four decades. A change in the ocean-climate of sub-arctic seas has thus been transferred to the deep and abyssal ocean at the headwaters of the “Great Conveyor”
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DCCC
Trad climber
Castle Rock, CO
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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It's hard to ignore the receding glaciers.
However, here along Colorado's Front Range we have had temperatures about ten degrees below average for the last year.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 02:55pm PT
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DCCC, I've looked at Dillon-area records before but not at the Front Range. Thanks to you, I just checked Boulder.
Here's how Boulder annual temps look 1895-2008. Bit over a 2-degree rise overall, but you can see that as the average moves, the extremes tend to move too.
The double-curve shape is a fingerprint of 20th-century global change.
Here's another thought about weather and climate. When Arctic air moves into your town or mine, making us cold, what do you suppose moved into the Arctic as that air was leaving?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:17pm PT
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How does the average temperature in Boulder graph compensate for increased area of paving in Boulder and growth of the city over the years?
Oh it doesn't?
FLUSH!!!!!!!!!
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:28pm PT
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Are you sure of that blahblah?
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:44pm PT
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No, about the only thing I'm SURE of regarding global warming is that there are crooks masquerading as "scientists" (read: the high priests of modern times) who have a vested interested in perpetuating a public belief in man-made global warming regardless of evidence. I'm sure of this because the crooks admitted it (in emails to each other that were intended to remain a confidential party of their conspiracy).
If you'd like to explain how your temperature graphs takes into account the obvious, man-made changes in the geography of the Boulder over the years, I'll read your response.
By the way, as someone who lives in Boulder, we all know we've had a few cold winters in a row, ranging from somewhat to significantly colder than average. Had a real doozey a few years ago--coldest winter by far in the nearly 20 years I've lived here. Apparently it has something to do with sunspots. And last summer was cool too--I got a whole house fan in the beginning of the summer in my effort to reduce use of AC and be environmentally friendly--didn't get much use of it. But it will come in handy when the sunspots go away or come back or whatever they do.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 03:54pm PT
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No, about the only thing I'm SURE of regarding global warming is that there are crooks masquerading as "scientists"
And how did you come to this certainty?
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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Just for fun I broke Boulder temps down by season. Showing only linear trends here, to keep the picture simple. You can see that the spring, summer and winter warming has been a bit steeper than the +2 degrees rise in annual temp.
But there's no trend in the fall, I guess they remove all Boulder's pavement in that season.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:41pm PT
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Chiloe, love seeing data.
I do too. Picking up a new paper, I always turn to the graphs. Then puzzle through the fine print to figure out what this is.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:51pm PT
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Weschrist -is correct once again that global climate has nothing to do with
the local weather that each of us experience.
IPCC can have fun publishing their byzantine reports on climate change,
(on their own dime from now on)
proclaiming gloom and doom but it has nothing to do with the local weather where each of us lives. The proof is just outside your window.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 05:55pm PT
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OMFG, South Dakota is dumb.
Yep, dumbness abounds.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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WEschrist - your permanent sin is the sin of omission. Data that disagrees
with your narrative of AGW is ignored in your support of taxing the economy to near death just so IPCC global warming high priests can fly around having conferences.
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roadman
climber
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:13pm PT
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http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124008307
seems like every year we have a cool winter they come out of the woodwork? Oh this is "pruf" that global warming is not man made and bla bla bla.
Can they help thinking this way. cool little bit of research on why the hell people are so "dum" when it comes to this stuff.
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Feb 24, 2010 - 06:22pm PT
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One more graphic before I wrap up and go home: global temperature this time.
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