Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:08pm PT
|
"You're all guilty too. All you drama queens helped cause this nightmare. You all have a hand in it, too."
LOL. I blame Werner. He spent his career saving climbers and hikers when he could have been saving the world!
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:09pm PT
|
Philo, we're still waiting for support for your 2,000,000 number.
|
|
jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
|
Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan. I have one family member heading there now and one going after a short leave when he comes home from Iraq. I'm all for following the lead of China, et all and ignoring the costly ventures which net us nothing but we will always have to protect out international interests just as China and Russia will. Russia's move into Osetia was to protect their oil pipeline. Their wars are much lest costly because they don't care who gets killed or what the rest of the world thinks of them.
|
|
philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:23pm PT
|
http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.com/2006/05/post-1967-palestinian-israeli-deaths.html
TUESDAY, MAY 16, 2006
Post-1967 Palestinian & Israeli deaths from occupation & violence
As of late APRIL 2006, how many Israelis and Palestinians, respectively, have died from Palestinian non-state violence and Israeli state violence?
SHORT ANSWER: 1,133 Israelis and an estimated 5,144 Palestinians (including 952 children) have been killed since September 2000. From UN data, the post-1967 avoidable mortality (excess mortality) in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which 90% has been avoidable) - as compared to 2,178 post-1967 Israeli terrorism deaths (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs figures).
CAREFULLY DOCUMENTED ANALYSIS:
1. Terrorism deaths in Israel1920-1999 total 2,580 (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
Quote: “From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,580 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks. The last terrorism-related death in 1999 was recorded on August 30, 1999. The first death in 2000 was recorded on September 27, 2000, with the outbreak of the current wave of Palestinian violence and terror” (“Terrorism deaths in Israel: 1920-1999”, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
2. Terrorism deaths in Israel 1967-1999 total 1,065 (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2000/1/Terrorism+deaths+in+Israel+-+1920-1999.htm ).
3. Terrorism deaths in Israel since 2000 total 1,113
Quote: “ 1,113 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000” (specifically 27 September 2000 – 17 April 2006; “Victims of Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000”, Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 2006; see: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm ).
4. From the above information, all derived from the Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, we can calculate that as of April 2006 there have been 4,758 terrorism deaths in Israel since 1920 and 2,178 since the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (the Occupied Palestinian Territories) and the Golan Heights (Syria) in 1967.
5. Palestinians killed from September 2000-February 2005 total 4,009
Quote: “Since the outbreak of the Palestinian uprising (Intifada) in September 2000, through February 2005, 4,009 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli occupation forces” (“4,009 Palestinians killed and more than 44,500 wounded by Israelis from September 2000 to February 2005, PNIC [Palestinian National Information Centre] Report”, Al-Jazeerah, March 2005; see: http://www.aljazeerah.info/Human%20price%20of%20the%20occupation/human_price_of_the_israeli_occup.htm )
6. Palestinians killed by Israeli occupation forces from September 2000 total 5,144
From the above information, we can that estimate that, as of April 2006, a further 1,135 Palestinians have been killed and 12,594 wounded since February 2005 and that a total of 5,144 Palestinians have been killed (including an estimated 952 children) and 57,100 have been wounded since September 2000
7. Post-1967 avoidable mortality and under-5 infant mortality in the Occupied Palestinian Territories total 0.3 and 0.2 million, respectively
Avoidable mortality (technically, excess mortality) is the difference between the actual deaths in a country and the deaths expected for a peaceful, decently-run country with the same demographics (see: http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.com/ ). Post-1967 avoidable mortality (excess mortality) in the Occupied Palestinian Territories totals 300,000 and the post-1967 under-5 infant mortality 183,000 (of which about 90% was avoidable) (estimated from UN Population Division data; see: http://esa.un.org/unpp/ ). The “annual under-5 infant mortality” (expressed as a percentage of the under-5 infant population) is 0.51% (Occupied Palestinian Territories) as compared to 0.12% (Israel) (2003 figures; see: http://esa.un.org/unpp/ and the latest UNICEF reports: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/index.html ).
Professor Peter Singer, formerly at Monash University Melbourne, and now Professor of Bioethics at Princeton University in the US, has been widely acclaimed as the most influential living philosopher (see: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/323/7318/940 ) and has generated enormous controversy over his advocacy of “active”, painless, non-voluntary euthanasia for severely disabled infants. However his comments over “passive euthanasia” are relevant to “passive genocide” by Occupiers such as the Israelis in the Occupied Palestinian Territories and the US-led Coalition in Occupied Iraq and Afghanistan: “Doctors who deliberately leave a baby to die when they have the awareness, the ability, and the opportunity to save the baby’s life, are just as morally responsible for the death as they would be if they had brought it about by a deliberate positive action” (H. Kuhse & P. Singer, Should the Baby Live? The Problem of Handicapped Infants, Oxford University Press, Oxford, 1985, pp84-85).
Professor Peter Singer has further stated the following moral generality “We are responsible not only for what we do but also for what we could have prevented … We could consider the consequences of what we do and what we decide not to do” (P. Singer, Writings on an Ethical Life, Ecco Press, New York, 2000, ppxv-xvi; see: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/science/ockham/stories/s1445960.htm ).
The 1949 Geneva Conventions relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (see: (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm )
are explicit in demanding that the Occupier does everything “to the fullest extent of the means available to it” to preserve the health and life of its conquered subjects:
“Article 55. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring the food and medical supplies of the population; it should, in particular, bring in the necessary foodstuffs, medical stores and other articles if the resources of the occupied territory are inadequate …
Article 56. To the fullest extent of the means available to it, the Occupying Power has the duty of ensuring and maintaining , with the cooperation of the national and local authorities, the medical and hospital establishments and services, public health and hygiene in the occupied territory, with particular reference to the adoption and application of the prophylactic and preventive measures necessary to combat the spread of contagious diseases and epidemics. Medical personnel of all categories shall be allowed to carry out their duties …”
Whether a child dies violently (from bombs or bullets) or dies non-violently (from deprivation or malnourishmnet-exacerbated disease), the end result is the same and the culpability the same. The Ruler is responsible for the Ruled, the Occupier is responsible for the Occupied subjects.
Israel - a prosperous, liberal democracy with a population extremely well aware from the Jewish Holocaust of the horrendous consequences of racism and human rights abuse - has FAILED to meet its obligations under the 1949 Geneva Conventions (see: (http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/92.htm ) and has also FAILED near-comprehensively in relation to the 1989 Convention on the Rights of the Child (see: http://www.ohchr.org/english/law/pdf/crc.pdf ), most notably and fundamentally with respect to Article #6: “1. States Parties recognize that every child has the inherent right to life. 2. States Parties shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.”
This awful situation does NOT have to continue. All sensible, humane Jews and Arabs want peace. Thus IMMEDIATE implementation of an Interim Peace Plan can effect Peace with Justice NOW . Such an Interim Peace Plan for IMMEDIATE implementation could involve the following: 2 states; 1967 borders; joint provision of airport-style total security throughout the Holy Land; interim defence provision by Israel alone (Israel would probably accept nothing less); bigotry, racism and incitement made illegal; reconciliation; all human rights guaranteed for all; and secure access for ALL to ALL of the Holy Land.
posted by Dr Gideon Polya @ 11:17 PM
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:26pm PT
|
All these people killed and still you have no clue why.
You'll never get a clue by using the mundane method.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:33pm PT
|
At 960 posts, you'd think you guys were shouting over each other's heads about rap-bolting or Bush or something.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:43pm PT
|
"Philo, we're still waiting for support for your 2,000,000 number."
And waiting.
|
|
jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
|
|
|
Jan 11, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
|
Warfare was evolving into a strategical endeavor. Seizing the enemy's resources, etc. The cold war was most certainly a war. Countries like Russia will always play these chess games with us. Moving "strategic" bombers to Venezuela. The rest of the world fights wars of attrition. Wars of counter insurgency which we are NOT prepred to fight either in equipment, training or on the homefront. The simple answer to why there is fighting in Gaza is because neither side has killed enough of the opposition. I do give Israel credit because they tried using rubber bullets and talking even if they weren't saying the things the palestinians wanted to hear
.
"The name "Palestine" comes from the Philistine people. The Philistines (whose name is understood to mean "invaders" in Hebrew) occupied the southern coast of the region disappearing as a distinct group by the Assyrian period. What is possibly the earliest mention of them occurs in Egyptian texts which record a people called the Peleset, one of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt in Ramesses III's reign." Abraham gave the land to his people. Exactly who are HIS people? Who descended from Abraham? The Jews or the Arabs? If you know the answer to that then tell me why you think religion has anything to do with the conflict.
Lets say Isreal declares Gaza as a Canaanite, oops I meant palestinian state. What then? Where are they going to work? Where are they going to get their electricity? Hamas doesn't want peace with Isreal. They want them gone. Period. They just have a stupid way of trying to accomplish it.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 12:50am PT
|
This belongs on all three threads.
Hamas Background Brief no. 1: Extermination of Jews
http://newsblaze.com/story/20090104145154zzzz.nb/topstory.html
By Itamar Marcus and Barbara Crook
TO UNDERSTAND the causes of the Gaza conflict, it is essential to understand the Hamas ideology. Hamas presents itself as an Islamic supremacist movement. Its charter opens with a quote from the Quran: "You [Islamic nation] are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind." [3: 110] However, whereas many religions and cultures believe that their own traditions represent messages of truth, Hamas believes that this supremacy of Islam obligates them to commit genocide, literally to exterminate millions of people who have different beliefs, including the Jews.
The following are some recent examples of Hamas defining this ideology of genocide, as it applies to Jews:
1- Quran condemns Jews to extermination
"The Meccan [Quran] chapter entitled 'Jews' or 'Children of Israel' is remarkable... It's about today's Jews, those of our century, and speaks only of extermination and digging graves... This chapter sentences the Jews to extermination before a single Jew existed on earth... Palestine's blessing is linked to destruction of the center of global corruption [Jews of Israel], the snake's head. When the snake's head of [global] corruption is cut off, here in Palestine, and when the octopus's [Jew's] tentacles are cut off around the world, the real blessing will come with the destruction of the Jews, here in Palestine, and it is one of the splendid real blessings in Palestine." [Palestinian cleric ,Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), July 13, 2008]
2- Jews to face yet another Holocaust
Headline: "Suffering by Fire is Jews' destiny in this world and next."
"... you will taste the punishment of Scorching Fire." [Quran 3:181]
"This [Quran] verse threatens the Jews with the punishment of Fire... the reason for the punishment of Fire is it is fitting retribution for what they have done... but the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of Fire in this world, before the great punishment [of Fire in Hell] ... many of the [Islamic] religious leaders believe that the [Jews'] punishment of Fire is in this world, before the next world... therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews." [Sheikh Yunus Al-Astal, Hamas MP, in his regular column in Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) March 13, 2008]
It is important to note that the Hamas MP switched words in the last sentence, from the word he used throughout, "harik", which means "fire", to "mahraka" a word from the same root, that is used by Arabic speakers to mean "holocaust."
3 - Muhammad's promise: Jews will be killed
"Regarding the Jews, our business with them is only through bombs and guns... the prophet [Muhammad] promised that we will fight you, with Allah's help, until the tree and stone say: "Oh Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him."
[Nizar Rayan, Hamas religious and military leader, Al-Aqsa TV (Hamas), Jan. 1, 2009. Note: Rayan was killed on Jan. 2, 2009]
4 - Extermination of Jews - good for humanity
In an article promoting the continued use of suicide terror in the official Hamas newspaper:
"We find more than one condemnation and denunciation of the resistance operations and bombings [suicide attacks], carried out by Hamas and the Palestinian resistance branches... [Eventually] everyone will know that we did this only because our Lord commanded so: 'I did it not of my own accord' [Quran] and so that people will know that the extermination of Jews is good for the inhabitants of the worlds."
[Al-Rissala, (Hamas weekly) April 23, 2007]
5- Kill a Jew go to Heaven
A poster that Hamas posted on its old web site taught that killing a Jew is enough to grant the rewards of Heaven.
Text on Hamas poster: "I will knock on Heaven's doors with the skulls of Jews."
Axe is crashing through the word: "Jews."
[url on poster, Hamas terror wing: "Ezz Din Al Kassam"]
6- Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews
Hamas goes even further in its religious packaging of genocide. Hamas teaches that the redemption of all of humanity, the anticipated Islamic "Hour" of Resurrection, will happen only when Muslims are killing Jews and the remaining Jews will be exposed by the trees and stones.
Hamas write in Article 7 of the Hamas Charter:
"Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet [Muhammad] said: 'The time (of Resurrection) will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him!'"
[Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985]
7- Resurrection dependent on Muslims killing Jews
The Hamas belief that Jews must be killed for redemption to occur is a repeating theme of religious leaders on Palestinian Authority (Fatah) and Hamas TV. The following is one example:
"'The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews and the Muslims kill them, and the rock and the tree will say: 'Oh, Muslim, servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, kill him!' We must remind our Arab and Muslim nation, its leaders and people, its scholars and students, remind them that Palestine and the Al Aqsa mosque will not be liberated through summits nor by international resolutions, but it will be liberated through the rifle."
[Hamas Spokesman, Dr. Ismail Radwan, PA TV, March 30, 2007]
Conclusion:
Given this Hamas ideology of genocide, the essential problem with Hamas is not the missiles and rockets it showers on Israel, but the core belief that killing Jews is a prerequisite to redemption. Hamas's ongoing attempts to kill Jews, which have led to the current Gaza War, are a symptom of the far deeper problem -- the ideology teaching that Allah demands the extermination of Jews.
Israel and the West must create a strategy not only to destroy the terror infrastructures of Hamas, but to ultimately ensure that Jews and the world are safe from this ideology and its consequences.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 12:51am PT
|
"Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan."
Even money that we'll never see this come to pass with the Obama administration.
Where the hell will the money come from? When are people going to wake up to the fact that the country is far too much financial trouble to be policing other countries who do not pose an immediate threat to our nation or our interests. Pissing away billions of dollars we don't have, in any kind of military campaign, is totally insane.
My state of California is basically broke, and is considering issuing IOUs as tax refunds. The federal gov. can't be much better off. So who's talking about "scaling up in Afghanistan" if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad.
What do people thing this is, 1965? Sooner or later we've got to accept that for the immdediate future, our job as the world's mobile muscle is absolutely over.
JL
|
|
jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 01:02am PT
|
I'd take that bet and double it. It's already in the works. The Obama admin is hell bent on proving success in Afghanistan from what I have heard from all sources. I guess they will just print the money. I have heard that key officials in the new admin have already been in contact with China asking them to forgive whats left of the war debt and to loan us money. Thats where our "stimulus" checks came from too. I'm for the gov taking a realistic look at our economy and coming up with a real life strategy but that isn't going to happen. We just keep spending trillions of dollars on wars, automakers, banks, etc. Hasn't done a thing for me.
"if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad." Thats funny to me. Am I the only one who heard Obama talk about re-allocating troops to Afthanistan? Going back to who we vote for. It has nothing to do with change, ethnic group, or economy because the pres really doesn't decide the budget. The main role of the CIC is to protect our national interests abroad. His admin has already set the plan in motion to send my son to Afghanistan because thats what he believes he needs to do and thats exactly what he said he would do before he was elected.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 01:15am PT
|
I believe that some U.S. troops may have already been transferred to Afghanistan, increasing the numbers there. It is often mentioned in the news media here, and if wanted I'll find a reliable source. But the general gist is that the U.S. is moving troops to Afghanistan, to try to take care of business left unfinished there - and probably be a more immediate presence vis-a-vis Pakistan. Many will be in the southern and central provinces, which bear the brunt of the fighting.
The Canadian context is that many of your troops are supposed to end up in Kandahar, where our contingent is. Canada has had several thousand troops in Afghanistan for some years, in support of NATO forces. (And maybe as a good reason to not be available for Iraq.) 107 have died so far. Some NATO countries only allow their contingents to go to lower-risk areas. So we feel it will take some pressure off.
Your new government is already pressing our government to increase the length of Canada's commitment to Afghanistan past 2011, and to increase the number of our troops there.
It might be interesting to ferret out the actual number of combat troops the U.S. government admits to having in Afghanistan.
|
|
graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 01:46am PT
|
""Largo - agreed. Problem is we ARE planning a scale up in Afghanistan.""
Even money that we'll never see this come to pass with the Obama administration.... So who's talking about "scaling up in Afghanistan" if not folks who are delusional, moronic, or mad."
It's folks like Obama who are talking about scaling up in Afghanistan.
Obama's Administration Will Fully Support Troops In Afghan, Biden Says
January 11, 2009 4:24 p.m. EST
AHN Staff
Kabul, Afghanistan (AHN) - The U.S. Vice President-elect Joe Biden said Sunday that the incoming administration will continue to support American forces fighting in Afghanistan during his surprise visit to the country's southern region on Sunday.
On the second day of his trip, Joe Biden has pledged long-term American support for Afghanistan as President-elect Barack Obama has indicated in the past that the government will reduce its presence in Iraq and increase in Afghanistan.
"I am very interested in what becomes of this region because it affects us all," Biden said during his visit to Kandahar province.
Obama has plans to increase American presence by sending up to 30,000 additional security personnel to Afghanistan in 2009. Currently, there are around 32,000 American troops in the country serving alongside another 32,000 NATO-led and coalition troops.
|
|
dirtbag
climber
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 01:57am PT
|
We can't afford to lose the war in Afghanistan and turn it back over to the Taliban and Al Qaeda. That would be a disaster, for us and the Afghan people (especially females). The Taliban is trouble: they have a track record of trouble.
There are some shithole places in the world that legitimately do need some military attention.
|
|
jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
|
|
|
Jan 12, 2009 - 02:03am PT
|
Again, who chooses which war is just. The Taliban is bad but the Baath party is o.k.?
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!