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WBraun
climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:15pm PT
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One repeating theme is how easily seemingly ordinary stupidtopo brainwashed loons here become radicalized
into believing every stoopid story they are fed by their stoopid mainstream media.
You people are insane ......
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:32pm PT
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In the U.S. Constitution the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness trumps the right to own a gun. Even bureaucratic, expensive, inefficient gun control would save some lives. If it saves even one life, it is worth it.
That's an interesting corruption of constitutional jurisprudence, but since so many believe that the words in the Constitution (or, in this case, not in the Constitution) mean nothing anyway, perhaps it should not surprise me.
DMT has it right. If you don't like constitutional guarantees, change the Constitution. It provides the procedure to do so. Bypassing that mechanism amounts simply to tyranny, lawlessness or despotism.
The Second Amendment isn't the only one that results in a cost to innocents. The Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Amendments have allowed murderers to go free - and kill again - because we demand that the state follow the law, allow assistance of counsel, not search or sieze without probable cause and a warrant, etc. We don't say "Let's become a police state. If it saves one life, it's worth it," and for good reason.
Why just focus on gun control? The failure to prevent Mateen from acquiring a legal firearm wasn't just the fault of the Second Amendment. It included our reluctance to trample on the rights of people who were "different" in the matter of special scurtiny. You can't have a free society and prevent all crime.
If the consensus for changing gun laws that the mainstream media and most of the ST forum contributors allege really exists, politicians who fail to deliver will pay. The fact that they haven't may cause an objective observer to conclude that the consensus doesn't exist. The fact that the Orlando Massacre has prompted a great deal of grandstanding may even cause an objective observer to conclude that the grandstanders (you know who they are) have no desire to build a consenus, but rather to rally their own troops. And there's always their trump card (so to speak): everyone who disagrees with them is stupid, brainwashed or intellectually dishonest, so let's stamp out the speech of any who disagree.
It should sicken us all.
John
Edit:
Craig, what question did the alleged 80% majority of those polled answer? Is it something like "Do you support changing gun laws to prevent further massacres?" If so, who would say "no?" That begs the question of what change would actually prevent such a massacre other than something that allowed the government to confiscate all private firearms, which would probably lead to more deaths from gun zealots fighting to keep their weapons.
It reminds me of those polls saying that everyone would prefer to see fewer people in Yosemite Valley. Of course we would, since to see fewer poeple, we have to be there ourselves. They never ask how much they are willing to reduce their own time in the Valley to reduce the crowds.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
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Why the double standard that progressives apply between Islam and Christianity?
Only some progressives. I would be happy to see the world rid of both Islam and Christianity.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 22, 2016 - 02:45pm PT
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Nonsense. If you don't like the 2nd amendment rally your fellow citizens to change it. The shortcuts have proven unreliable.
Its just a matter of body counts, sadly. Not enough had died yet to warrant an edit of the constitution in the eyes of the majority.
DMT
It takes a lot more than a "majority" to pass a constitutional amendment. I'm too lazy to look it up but if you pick the states with the smallest populations, it only takes states with something like ~15% of the population to block an amendment. And small population states are generally far more pro-gun than large population states.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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pollingreport.com
"A background check on anyone attempting to purchase a gun in order to determine whether the prospective buyer has been convicted of a felony."
Favor 92% Oppose 8%
"Preventing certain people, such as convicted felons or people with mental health problems, from owning guns."
Favor 87% Oppose 12% Unsure 1%
"Preventing people who are on the U.S. government's Terrorist Watchlist or no-fly list from owning guns."
Favor 85% Oppose 14%
6/16-19/16
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:13pm PT
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If the consensus for changing gun laws that the mainstream media and most of the ST forum contributors allege really exists, politicians who fail to deliver will pay. The fact that they haven't may cause an objective observer to conclude that the consensus doesn't exist.
Or maybe you might conclude that in our highly partisan political system and highly gerrymandered house districts (which means that many voters will vote republican even when they disagree with many things that their republican politician stands for) and the lobbying power of the NRA (that is combined with a minority, but a minority that is ferociously single-minded when it comes to gun rights) and so on and so on.
You might conclude that we do not have a fully functional democratic system where the majority will of the voters is implemented on every issue.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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The Congressional Republicans pay for their obstruction by keeping an A+ NRA score
If they vote out of line, they will pay dearly,
they can't vote their conscience, they have to maintain their lockstep with the leadership
They will be primaried by some farther right wing loon that the Koch Brothers schooled and brainwashed.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:25pm PT
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"Never let a good crisis go to waste."
Rahm Emmanuel
This is the stance taken by the strongly anti-gun community.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:27pm PT
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aren't you talking about 9/11 BB
when they took away our civil liberties for our security
It's in the right wing play book
create crisis, fix crisis while reducing freedoms and Government functions
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:54pm PT
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Craig-
You continually equate Neocons (the Bush clan and Cheney) with true conservatives of a Constitutional ilk. That's tarring all with a very broad brush.
Edit: I never voted for either Bush. The so-called "Patriot Act" was anything but, and allowed intrusion into virtually every facet of American life.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Jun 22, 2016 - 03:57pm PT
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DMT-
That's the pot calling the kettle black. Go look in a mirror.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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maybe you didn't vote for Bush
But True Conservatives vote for Neo-cons, so they can be painted into the same box
No one else is voting for the Neo-cons, libertarians, or the fascists except conservatives
it sure isn't liberals that voted them into office
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Jun 22, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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another classic supertopo standoff...
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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I have read that some 80% of voters do not pay any attention until about two weeks before an election, the other 20% are like us, can vote right now and virtually nothing can happen to change our votes.
Campaign money is spent to influence perhaps 10% of the total vote
the other 10%, the true "undecideds" just flip a coin or ask their mom who she voted for
yes, this totals 110%
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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You might conclude that we do not have a fully functional democratic system where the majority will of the voters is implemented on every issue.
Good counterpoint by Dingus.
Someone famous once used the term "Tyranny of Democracy" (The old 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner).
As I understand it, protecting minorities is the big reason the Bill of Rights and subsequent amendments were added to the Constitution.
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 05:23pm PT
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A man who claimed to be the lover of Orlando gunman Omar Mateen said the June 12 massacre at a gay nightclub was motivated by revenge, not terrorism.
In an interview with Univision, the man said Mateen was “100 percent gay” and that the two had carried on a “friends with benefits” relationship after meeting last year through a gay dating app. He said he had reported his relationship with Mateen to the FBI and had been interviewed multiple times. The FBI also confirmed to Univision that it has met with him.
Mateen’s attack at Orlando’s Pulse nightclub was the result of a sexual encounter with two Latino men, one of which Mateen later discovered was HIV positive. The attack, carried out at the nightclub’s Latino night, was Mateen’s attempt at taking revenge against a specific community of gay men who he felt had used and rejected him, the man said.
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/orlando-shooter-gay-lover-omar-mateen-224644
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 07:43pm PT
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It's fun having a few lefties as far fetched as The Chief.
Thanks for keeping it interesting.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:43pm PT
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Thanks Norton,
Mateen’s attack at Orlando’s Pulse nightclub was the result of a sexual encounter with two Latino men, one of which Mateen later discovered was HIV positive. The attack, carried out at the nightclub’s Latino night, was Mateen’s attempt at taking revenge against a specific community of gay men who he felt had used and rejected him, the man said.
know what i'm say'in?
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