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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 06:58pm PT
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OK mt10110111101010 I'll give it to you that last shot is sweet. But swear to god sometimes I wish LEB was here. It's right about now she'd wade in, all wide-eyed and dumb as a stump. Here, I'll channel her:
"Well, I have never done a Moonflower Buttress but on the advise of a friend I did eat at the Moonflower Café once. They had an excellent eggs benedict. Have you ever had an eggs benedict? I suppose you could make eggs benedict on the Moonflower Buttress but having never been to a Moonflower Buttress I really can't say. Do they take credit cards there?"
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
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Perfect Bob. Beat me to it.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
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Can someone name any classic historical routes that has been retrobolted in Yosemite, Boulder, Diamond, Black Canyon or the Gunks??
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:05pm PT
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Hahahaha, that's not dire need, that's stupidity. If you're sticking your fingers in the hangars because you don't want to fall, then you're too stupid to be a climber in the first place.
Like I said, no one is forcing you to not run it out, or not free-solo, by adding bolts. Claiming you could still put your fingers in the hangars just proves you don't have an argument to counter that - which I already knew, of course, because there isn't one.
Huh? Make some sense.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
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BVB the Moonflower has become a trade route. It's the Nose of the Alaska Range.
No sh#t?! Man I'm out of the loop. 20 years ago us lower 48 types thot it was illgnar. My old college climbing buddy Steve Mascioli gone done in by it.
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DavidRoberts
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:08pm PT
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"Well, I have never done a Moonflower Buttress but on the advise of a friend I did eat at the Moonflower Café once. They had an excellent eggs benedict. Have you ever had an eggs benedict? I suppose you could make eggs benedict on the Moonflower Buttress but having never been to a Moonflower Buttress I really can't say. Do they take credit cards there?"
Now THAT is some funny ass shit!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:10pm PT
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Jesus wrote: Peter Croft calmly climbed around the sling, he didn't whine like a schoolgirl bitch that it was there. His solo was even more bad ass because pro was there. And a sling would be wayyyyy better than a hanger.
I think Honnold does the same thing...class act.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:21pm PT
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Jesus Joe, pull the stick out of your ass. This thread became a bad joke about 14,000,000,000,000 posts ago. School's out, junior. Take it to the dodgeball game.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:22pm PT
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C'mon Joe. Back when you were standing on bolts in Josh, you are saying that didn't make a difference? Or putting your finger in a bolt on a slab is of no help during some possible free solo mishap? Grab a reality check with your next latte.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:29pm PT
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Ya know, us Washington old-timers consider ascents done after the mud and verdage
has been troweled outta the cracks the same as retro-bolting.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
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Don't worry, the next generations will come along and be way more hard core and gnarly. They will shoot all the bears and sherpas will fix ropes up the peaks, because hey, we don't need no stinking chest thumping, HS bravado going on in the mountains. And we will have nice orderly lines at the base with harnesses and jumars for gear. It will be all about how many routes you ticked a what grade and how many facebook posts you made while doing it.
And I will be laughing my ass off if I am still alive.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:31pm PT
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10 year olds trapped in 50 year old bodies.
I'm 55, and think like a 16-year-old, but thanks anyway.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:32pm PT
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Mt10910...In 2007, the British Mountaineering Council introduced 10,000 bolts into the UK climbing scene mostly to replace existing unsafe fixed protection, which some fear will cause further conflict.
Seem the brits don't have that dilemma.
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
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On The North Face of The Rostrum, Peter Croft calmly climbed around the sling, he didn't whine... that it was there. His solo was even more bad ass because pro was there. And a sling would be wayyyyy better than a hanger.
As I understood the story, Peter Croft inadvertently put his arm through the sling or some such, to reach a hold there, then finished that solo and went back down to resolo that line that day for feeling he had compromised his level of commitment in that split second. Well, that is pure as the driven snow. And it is recognition that the level of commitment totally changes routes depending on how they are outfitted whether climbers clip the bolts or not and just know they are there to be ready to use at any moment.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:38pm PT
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No sh#t?
Sparkle Ponies demand mo' bedda bolts!
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
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OK..I'll try this one more time.
Can someone name any classic historical routes that has been retrobolted in Yosemite, Boulder, Diamond, Black Canyon or the Gunks??
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DavidRoberts
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
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Ron, do the old guys get mad when you cup their balls or just smile and tell you to relax your throat?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:44pm PT
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Can someone name any classic historical routes that has been retrobolted in Yosemite, Boulder, Diamond, Black Canyon or the Gunks??
There have been a few bolts added here or there on classics, but I think your point is have any classic face pitches been retrobolted to modern well protected/sport status?
Can't think of any. Anyone?
P.S. Here's some examples of the "bolt here-and-there" on classics:
DNB - bolt added after mantel. Petzl Long-life, so it's still there. Whoever added it didn't bother to replace the old bolts 6 feet lower at the crux (probably because there were 2 old 1/4", now single 3/8" stainless).
E Butt of El Cap - bolt added to replace piton, with FA permission. Stayed a few years then chopped. The bolt protected the crux a bit better than the original piton.
Regular Route on Fairview Dome - 4 bolts added in the '70s, 2 belay, 2 pro, one fell out in the '80s or '90s, 3 remaining removed later (by me - way too dangerous to leave since inexperienced folks were bailing off of single spinner rusty 1/4" with Leepers - with perfect stopper placements 5 feet away).
In Tuolumne the first half of an old runout route Eunuch was sport-bolted by "The Boltway" which then went straight up. Mostly 5/16" buttonheads. Bolts were pounded flat then bent back, still there almost 20 years after the retrobolt. Probably not a "classic" route though depending on your definition. My guess is that it would have been fully chopped if 5/16" bolts weren't such a massive pain to remove.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 24, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
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Bob, when John Bachar and I went on "bouldering expeditions" to go see John Gill et al, circa 1975, everyone thought we were crazy. But I loved bouldering AND the big stuff.
Back then, the big routes ruled the climbing game, and when people came to the US to go climbing, the Golden Fleece was El Cap or Half Dome or something big enough to justify the flight. That's not to say that techincal standards at Split Rock, Pueblo, the Gunks, Suicide, Joshua Tree, (where high-balling was really taking off), El Do, Estes, the Dakotas, the Needles, etc. was not sky high. They clearly were. My point was that the benchmark, seminal climbing area in the 1970s was Yosemite, because of the magnitude, easy access, and good weather.
That much said - up to now I've just been jiving around, pulling people's chain with talk about sac and so forth, playing the arrogant bully and acting out everyone's disowned bad boy energy. I don't mind being the thug on this thread. It's fun and childish. But this time I'll play it straight.
He wrote: I never suggested adding pro, now you’re the one being dishonest in order to address then castigate an argument I never made. But hey, that’s how things roll on the Internet, so I don’t give a sh#t in absolute terms, but I actually would be into a meaningful discussion and an honest answer.
Thus my question about the acceptability of altering routes by removing pitons and subsequently climbing them clean.
Why not address that?
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I didn't address this because the topic of this thread is VERY specific, and concerns old run out face climbs that were on-sighted, ground up on the FA, and where the first ascent party attempted to limit the bolts for several reasons including, A) bolts were considered a last resort protection option AT THAT TIME, and B) trying to climb with less pro was an exciting game that gave the leaders a sense of mastery.
Forty years later these efforts have been re-engineered to be statements about the FA asserting ownership, about the FA being dishonest "expecting" others to take the same risks with half the ability cha cha cha, and a bunch of other attributes that paint the FA parties as arrogant elitists that have no right to have done what the did, to be macho posers to have done so, and who have even less right insisting that the modern climber, often schooled on sport climbing and guided by a more safety minded, leader-friendly ethic, does not have the sovereign right if not responsibility to "fix" and update these routes to a modern day level of acceptable risk.
After all, look at how other "old" routes have been updated and improved, such as all the old climbs first bagged using pitons. Now the old pins are gone and we use nuts and cams and THIS is an updating of the old resulting in an improved route.
But how is this the nearly the same as adding bolts to the old museum climbs?
In the former (removing pins and using cams etc.), we have cleaned up old technology and adopted a newer, more ecological alternative that in most all cases results in an even higher safety level. The modern climber attacking a crack with a rack full of new gadgets has a decided advantage over the guy in lug soled shoes, swami belt and a one inch sling of pitons.
So updating the climb by going pitonless is an improvement all across the board.
Adding bolts to old museum climbs is not modernizing the gear, since many of the old routes have been rebolted with new gear already, from such museum classics like Greasy but Groovy to Black Primo to Paradise Lost to full in the blank. What adding bolts will do is to make the route immediately available to people who are frightened by and cannot justify accepting that level of risk management, often explaining the view by insisting that the climbers from 40 years ago were technically better (VERY untrue), that they were not really taking the risks they are "asking" the modern climber to take (since they did these routes with ease - also not true), or that they were playing a run-out game that most modern climbers have no stomach for, lest they would be doing those routes already.
If you were to put the prevailing modern opinion of run out climbs into simple English, it might read: Those routes scare me to death. They are needlessly dangerous. I don't climb to battle huge danger or fear, and as is, these museum climbs serve little purpose or utility, but simply take up prime real estate. And what's more, I'd really like too climb them right now. 1,000s would if they could. And what does someone from the past have to say about it that makes any sense today, for me, right now, since I'm the one using the resource, not them. Who says anyone "owns" the rock and that I can't do the smart thing, assert ownership my own self and fix these routes so they become immediately accessible to a majority of climbers at a given technical level.
Bringing out the issue of respecting tradition, which says we leave a routes as the FA did it, finds little play on this thread. What people mostly want is to be able to climb these route without undue risk, and for many, any risk beyond that normally encountered in climbing is "undue."
My sober answer is that there is no reason why you shouldn't bolt up these routes, but it will be interesting to see who's level of risk management you will accept as the norm, as the yardstick to shoot for, be it grid bolts, 15 foot run outs, or 25 for run outs. Will there be a chart and a kind of benchmark run out that the modern climber can "feel," and nod approval to? What will it be and who will decide? Or do you simply grid bolt everything and then everyone can choose their level of risk by skipping bolts as required?
I would hate to be the one arbitrating how many bolts are acceptable, as a rule, since "the community" will never arrive at a consensus.
So no, I can offer no "logical" argument for not bolting these climb up tomorrow. So I suggest that the very first route that should be bolted up is Black Primo, on Middle (a route Kevin and I did 39 years ago), then bolt up the Bachar-Yerian.
The BY is easier at only minimal/mid 5.11, and with the new bolts, many thousands of climbers will shortly have the time of their lives on what was simply too frightening for them before. This will open up the route, and for those still wanting the thrill of the old school experience, they can just skip bolts.
Let's say for this initial experimental phase, we agree that leader fall should never exceed twenty feet, plus rope stretch, so bolts will be installed every 10 feet on terrain at 5.10 or higher, and every 15-25 feet on easier terrain.
Is this acceptable? We can start on these two routes and see how the plan works? And if others have other run out criteria per length, and how far/close the bolts should be, let's get their opinion and then actually take action and blot these two routes up.
I will personally purchase the gear, but I'm still nursing a broken leg so someone else will have to do the actual drilling. Unless this thread results in action, it was all talk, and we can't leave it at that. If the old museum climbs need to be bolted up, than it starts right here. Right now.
And MT10910, since we can't let you just spray incomprehensively, countering whatever you can understand, just to be thorny, you are the one we nominate to bolt up Black Primo, lest we might believe you're all chin music and no heft.
JL
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