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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 16, 2013 - 10:48pm PT
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MH2
climber
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Apr 16, 2013 - 11:56pm PT
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And so now in April,
I sit on me chair,
And I watch the Trads pass before me.
And I see my old comrades,
How proudly they march,
Reviving old dreams of past glories
And the old men march slowly,
Old bones stiff and sore.
They're tired old heroes from a forgotten war...
But as year follows year,
more old men disappear.
copyright Eric Bogle
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 12:21am PT
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Truth be relative. Qualify the strong ethick of trad with boulderisma and we could have to begin all over, Erik. But trad involves a rope, at least, and attachment biners; and what qualifies between that and the rock, that is also relative, to a degree, with emphasis on freedom from rules, 'back-up' pro, and local enhancements. All that should flash through yer head as you desperately thrash for some dignity and style and keep from having to do all this crazy sh#t over again.
While the bad old boulderer drops lightly to the ground, chalks up, and re-starts.
Trad Is Nuts. All there is to it.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Cave Creek, AZ
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Apr 17, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Seems to me from following all that has come before on this thread is that the common idealistic and romanticized vision for those that are drawn to play the trad game is to practice, in way that suits each individuals' ability and temperament, the principle that your experience of and expression of mastery of a medium are optimized by minimizing the technology and having the ability, discipline, and restraint to adapt to the environment rather than changing it is the ideal.
"Given the vital importance of style we suggest that the keynote is simplicity." Yvon Chouinard & Tom Frost
Seems that's the essence of trad.
Just sayin'....
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:15am PT
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Traditional climbing is a sort of myth-making, by its very construct. There are other ways of engaging rock, climbing, but trad persists in its Romantic conjecture. Across all civilizations we have the same story:
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:22am PT
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“If you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.”
--J.Campbell
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MH2
climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:26am PT
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I was just walking a mile in the other guy's shoes so I'd be a mile away and he wouldn't have any shoes.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Apr 17, 2013 - 02:01am PT
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What's the supernatural aid within trad climbing? Someone who has made the claim to have supernatural aid?
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 02:58am PT
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Aww...away on vacation and boy did this discovery load up fast! Beautiful Tarbuster! What a bunch of living in the past horseshit from DMT! Those climbs, whether rebolted and/or climbed with new/old rubber by new/old climbers are still way rad trad! And I still say some of those way run climbs haven't been improved upon much by this day and age or whatever(Haven't seen anyone at the Royal Arches Apron climbing except the Red Tail on drafts)......And I still say that climbing those way run routes done in Warbler Spirit are almost, if not outright, the same adventure as the FA if done onsite without a bolt kit to pacify the monsters. Relive it DMT or fade away...........Go climb this and see if you do any better in your new outfit....Rock on Ed.......And all those putting up Trad.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 09:31am PT
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Western Climber:
Welcome back and Thanks for the kudos. It's been fun!
Were you speaking to DMT or Dingus McGee?
'Thinking here the opinions you just addressed would be ascribed to the latter gentleman.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2013 - 09:47am PT
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The quick brown tar buster
Jumped over the lazy old jaybro
And beat me to it!!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Apr 17, 2013 - 10:37am PT
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Dingus be the one....And not running you down brother. Just stickin' up for a fellow tradster and all trad brothers who can't find an old pair of Pivetta's to relive the histrionics el perfecto. I'd be honored to climb on your rope anytime if you're ever in the valley in whatever shoes you bring.....
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 10:46am PT
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After all of this, and having heard from Patrick Compton a couple pages back, I feel it is incumbent upon me to clarify, gulp, some general stuff. I'm going to guess Patrick represents a younger generation. Regardless of my assumption of his age, he might be an old guy who just started climbing recently, a member of the younger generation who might read this thread deserves to get something to take away; something generally definitive which has some relevance to his/her understanding. Most all of us old coots, I would suspect, probably never had much trouble with the definition of trad.
Trad is a basic ideal with some fuzzy guidelines. Inasmuch as it's about defining an acceptable or ideal way to do a first ascent, it's about minimizing bolting, and not bolting from the top, where bolting is concerned. It's also about not previewing from the top; whether doing a first ascent or a repeat. When we get into first ascension of crack climbs, it gets fuzzier, because many cracks in places such as Yosemite were so choked with dirt and munge that they needed to be cleaned from the top down; or at the least from the ground up on aid. When we talk about multi-pitch trad climbs, many of these are aid routes historically speaking, which were at some point free climbed.
So the first ascent guidelines comprise a continuum, not a hard and fast set of rules. All of trad has an aspect of idealism to it and there has always been some wiggle room.
Once climbs have been established, given this continuum of "allowable" first ascent tactics, largely dictated by locale and variances in specific terrain, then subsequent generations are presented with the opportunity to climb in trad style. Again, Higgins' rules for slabs were amended by Bachar's rules for nearly dead vertical face to include minimal and very restrained use of aid. Ed Webster made an aid ascent of Primrose Dihedrals, bolting the Ear pitch. Steve Hong subsequently free climbed the route. It is a trad route now, or if you like, represents an opportunity to climb trad. Yet, in service of a definitive understanding, I can't think of anyone who doesn't consider it a trad route.
So we have at our disposal, speaking in general terms, many trad climbing areas, (and if they also have sport climbs it doesn't disqualify them as trad areas in general). So, available to new and current generations are many areas which contain routes which were established along this continuum of "allowable" trad methods; areas which provide the opportunity to climb trad. Yosemite, Joshua Tree, California's Needles, Red Rocks, Eldorado Canyon, Vedauwoo, Black Canyon of the Gunnison, Canyonlands/Moab, Devils Tower, Needles of South Dakota, Cathedral Ledge, Whitehorse Ledge, The Gunks: to name a few, all of which I have direct experience excepting The Gunks. Also missed out on Granite Mountain and Cochise Stronghold ... and all of the South and the Adirondacks, and Squamish, oh my! I know; my bias trends from West to East. Nothing hierarchical implied.
As to whether a climber is really truly Trad or not: it might better be put that such and such a person "climbs trad" … at best a generality in service of understanding someone's basic thrust or interests. It's rare that this is exclusive and it needn't be exclusive in terms of drawing a general picture of one's passions or focus. It doesn't seem inaccurate to say that Alex Honnold often climbs trad. I wouldn't disagree however, that it might seem fruitless to attempt to pigeonhole him as a trad climber. Most of us engage in a variety of climbing styles. Describing someone with a single term is usually simply a way of generalizing their pursuits and just maybe, but not necessarily, their values.
Speaking lastly of values: I value trad climbing for the particular experience which it confers. I don't personally have any doubts as to what trad climbing is and does. Summarized simply, but not exclusively: "A rope, rack, and the shirts on our backs!". For those not familiar, this implies minimalism and a certain flavor of commitment and adventure. I do not by extension, devalue sport climbing. A strong preference for one aspect of life does not preclude one from partaking in or approving of another.
Happy Climbing!
Roy
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 12:00pm PT
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Thanks Ed,
Note that I posted this link as well as his follow-up someways upthread.
The first, which you have helped us with here, was written in 1984, the second in 2006.
It's also interesting to note, that he wrote Tricksters and Traditionalists in 1984 and this is after John Bachar established a new set of rules (namely amending the rules to allow the use of hooks on steep face), which were largely absorbed by the community, in 1981/1982. Certainly by Mike Lechlinski and I, who were using hooks in the California Needles, by 1983.
Here is the follow-up: Tricksters and Traditionalists Revisited 2006
http://www.tomhiggins.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=33&Itemid=19
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MH2
climber
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
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Incredible that this fine thread was built in under 10 days. Hat off to the foreman, Tarbuster, and the crew.
Trad, in part, was simply the way climbing was done not too long ago. The same approach can be used today but the sense of launching into the unknown (or the poorly known) is less readily available.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:11pm PT
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Trad is Heaven on Earth.....get it while you can, sitting on a cloud playing a harp is going to bore the hell out of most folks here. Come to think of it, hell looks like a far better option.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 17, 2013 - 01:46pm PT
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Trad is a state of mind. And depending on whose mind you're in, the experience will vary greatly.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 17, 2013 - 03:09pm PT
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Tar,
Thanks for the detailed explanation and the 'Tradster and Trickster' links. FYI, I am 45 and have been climbing since I was 16, so I have seen the sport evolve.... and I do both sport and trad. FWIW, my trad abiliity skyrocketed when I started doing sport and bouldering.
My personal perspective is that any route that takes gear (enough that you need to place it correctly or risk major injury or death) is Trad. What is being purported on the links you posted and somewhat in this thread is the idea that only ground-up, 'adventure climbing' is truly trad. This simply isn't true anymore, and it has a lot to do with physical performance pushing the grades.
Modern trads are pushing mental and physical limits, so onsighting and lowering without working and placing a minimum of bolts or cleaning cracks for gear is impossible for a minimum of safety. The Dawn wall siege is a good example. Those guys are doing v10 and up moves, run out 20-30'. This level of 5.14 trad climbing simply doesn't happen onsight, ground up. Cracks needed cleaned, sometimes ticked for hand and gear placements, the odd bolt placed; for example, Honnold on Gift from Wyoming. In general, risk versus gain needs to be assessed. Some, including the link author, will say this is a slippery slope to sport climbing, but this is untrue. Sport climbs have bolts 6-10', whether the section needs it or not. There is still a very high degree of risk in these climbs while maintaining a high level of need for physical ability.
Then, the practice formerly known as trad becomes adventure climbing. A proud tradition to be sure, but now an aspect of trad and an aspect of the larger sport as a whole. As you have said, a point on a continuum. At this point, adventure climbing may have more in common with alpine climbing than modern trad because the grades are less important than the adventure, risk, and well... just surviving!
I would be curious what the hardest ground-up onsight climb is.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 17, 2013 - 03:51pm PT
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Patrick,
Agreed for the most part that's an accurate characterization of the current state of things with free climbing and specifically at the cutting-edge.
It's been a really big thread; this is why I just made a post to the effect we've come full circle. Please refer to a place in our discussion roughly between posts 220 through 240. I'll repost my particular content here as it will echo what you are saying if not simply validate what you are getting at. I apologize if you were in fact present at this point in time during the discussion; if this is so then I'm just needlessly repeating myself (I don't mean to be facetious). Keep in mind however, what Warbler is saying and probably what you are saying, is cutting-edge modern free climbing has morphed beyond the constraints of trad's original definition.
I believe Kevin has it right: leave the definition as we once knew it, so that these distinctions are not lost for those who still wish to operate at the expense of technical achievement and likewise prefer to have, at ready disposal, an accurate name to give this behavior or style as it were.
BEGIN REPOST
Tarbuster Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 12:57am PT
The first HEAD POINT route I encountered was done in Joshua Tree by British guys. Way back in the late 80s. It actually had a couple of bolts, and some gear, but not really enough of either. So you wired it out on top rope so that your prior knowledge of the unprotected areas could pull you through.
It was a new paradigm. Fairly creative really. Of course it makes more sense when there are no added bolts because it's actually about conservation. It's like a sustained route where you find yourself soloing here and there in different places. Working the moves on top rope gives you the confidence to bridge those gaps.
We did lots of on-site climbing this way too, usually not as hard.
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:06am PT
So picture the modern El Capitan free ascents. When working from the ground up, they basically gas it between bits of good gear and old tat; maybe the first time up a section they hang here and there when there is gear, after a big run out.
They know they're not "allowed" to be throwing bolts in on established aid climbs. Maybe they even do a little bit of aid to get above the section that they need to top rope. Lots of times they flat-out lower from the top of El Capitan to work whole sections and learn these gaps between the available gear and old fixed aid junk.
It's a real mix of strategies to figure out how to climb what is there and protect only with natural placements and what was left by the old aid ascents in terms of fixed gear.
This is why I say it's like HEAD POINT.
They are only using what the rock and the old fixed placements allow. Lots of big runouts. It ain't sport climbing by any means. But it sure as hell isn't what I described in the OP. I'm not saying it should be.
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 10, 2013 - 01:23am PT
Moving on, this is why I'm suggesting modern climbers don't have the same conceptual framework. They have always known, by virtue of their having grown up with sport climbing, that hanging and working and even top roping are completely legitimate options prior to a clean ascent.
So when it comes to "gear routes", they're growing up with some knowledge perhaps about how these big routes on El Capitan are freed. All these tactics at their disposal. It just wouldn't occur to them not to hang and rest when they need to. They're just working a route as usual.
Our whole idea of never grabbing protection was actually fairly artificial if you think about it. It was self-imposed limitation, as a matter of style. In contrast, they have no self-imposed limitations and they just climb as hard as they can, hang when needed, until they can red point something. That much they understand very well: the value of a red point.
Their heroes are freeing these big walls with the same tactics. Why would they play some game of regression concerning how hard climbing is done, whether by bolt or gear where protection is concerned?
In essence this is what traditional free climbing would be asking of them. Hardly anyone is around to suggest they should be doing it any other way by now. Nevertheless, they know what a clean ascent feels like. They just don't use that modality as a way to progress.
Completely different conceptual framework! And not limited by this silly set of rules that we used to perform under. TRAD climbing would seem ARTIFICIAL to them. It's all about how you get the clean ascent. This is the big distinction between TRAD CLIMBING and MODERN FREE CLIMBING.
There is no modern trad climbing. [At the cutting-edge of technical advances in free climbing with gear] Unless, you take it as having been redefined, essentially in the HEAD POINT fashion. Saves the rock from unwanted bolts, but by different means and through a different set of limiters than we allowed ourselves in the TRAD ERA.
They figure it out anyway they can. We figured it out with some strict maxims in place: no grabbing gear on a free climb. No rehearsing a free climb. Hang dogging, resting on gear, was not part of the TRAD ETHOS. A much slower way to progress up through the grades.
HANG DOGGING of GEAR ROUTES paved the way for SPORT CLIMBING. Eventually the term hang dogging fell away completely because it was essentially a term of scorn. "WORKING a ROUTE" replaced it. So the value judgment peeled away, probably the very first of the leaves to fall off of the TREE of the TRAD ETHOS. Bit by bit, over 30 years the concepts of negativity which guarded the trad ethos have diminished both in the lexicon and in relevance.
This is how it presumably came to be diminished in similar ways with other parameters that guarded the trad ethos. NOW, OLD TRAD can be seen to have been replaced with MODERN TRAD, or HARD TRAD for lack of any consistent terms I'm aware of in the culture.
Essentially the new generation gets the idea of minimal damage to the rock; they definitely get the idea of a clean ascent, but they are using their own familiar tactics in order to achieve these two goals. GOALS which BOTH generations SHARE in COMMNON.
Here's the kicker: I'm going to take a crack at it and say that it was AID CLIMBING ethical preservation that may have played a part. "No adding bolts to existing aid routes" was something the new generation heard loud and clear. Isn't that perhaps ironic! It wasn't some maxim handed down from some crusty old trad free climber. Essentially they redefined the game as it exists outside of bolted climbing, and using their own tactics. "We'll learn to save the rock, but were going to climb at our own standard and use our own tactics to do it". BRAVO!
DINGUS MCGEE: how's that for a grab at characterizing your question: WHAT IS TRAD NOW?
END OF REPOST
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