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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It's one thing to say that the government-military-industrial complex can't always be trusted, that it may have motivations and information that we don't know about, and that the story we're given isn't always consistent or complete. Erecting a far fetched edifice alleging a vast and malevolent conspiracy based on isolated facts, small inconsistencies, and numerous unsupported assumptions is quite another. It's mental speculation, with little foundation in reality.
One of the people who repeatedly promotes such fantasies here claims to be a school teacher. He'd get a lot worse than the occasional derision he gets here for his fantasies, if he tried to do so at work. Even appreciating the peculiarities in the US national psyche, it's still nonsense.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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True DMT. The media has one purpose: deliver viewers to advertisers. Period. Sometimes this involves outright lies. (And I'm being generous by saying sometimes). Sometimes it involves omission of information that then creates misinformation. And sometimes they are mistaken. And sometimes they are given mistaken or purposely misleading information which they dutifully report.And lots of other things.
I certainly am not critical of anyone who is critically thinking about this or anything. I am a bit surprised to hear many (and I've got no one person in mind) immediately conclude that some statement are lies. Period. Many other things can and are likely in operation.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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100% in agreement with you there DMT. This incident has made some surprising bedfellows. :) I've actually enjoyed that aspect of it.
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WBraun
climber
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Check out Alex Beam (Newsweek and Boston Globe) as he explains how the controlled press in the U.S. has a long history of publishing stories that are nothing but lies.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Have you got a link, Werner?
And yes, the news media, which sometimes claims to be printing a first draft of history, is often wrong, especially in details. Any of us who've had dealings with it know that. Again, not proof of a conspiracy.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Show credible sources that state that Obama said he would "heal the world"
and "make Muslims like us"
What a dumb little fuk SUAP is
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monolith
climber
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Yep, there's the fatter bin laden and the skinnier bin laden tapes. One admitting, one denying. Same guy, just one tape converted improperly between formats with different aspect ratios.
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shut up and pull
climber
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WHEN YOU ELECT A DO-NOTHING, AMERICA-HATING, JEREMIAH-WRIGHT/AYERS WORSHIPPING, "COMMUNITY ORGANIZER" -- THIS IS WHAT YA GET:
10 ways Barack Obama botched the aftermath of the masterful operation to kill Osama bin Laden
By Toby Harnden May 5th, 2011, The Telegraph, Great Britain
President Obama's handling of the aftermath look amateurish. The past few days have seemed like an extended amateur hour in the White House as unforced error after unforced error has been made in the handling of the US Government’s message about the killing of bin Laden.
We should not forget the bottom line in this: bin Laden was justifiably and legally killed by brave and skilled US Navy SEALs. The operation was audacious and meticulous in its planning and execution. President Barack Obama made the call to carry out the raid and his decision was vindicated in spades.
Having said that, the messiness since then has taken much of the sheen off this success, temporarily at least. Here’s a summary of what went wrong once the most difficult bit had been achieved:
1. It took nearly three days to decide not to release the photographs. I think there was a case for not releasing the pictures, though on balance I think disclosure would have been best. But whichever way Obama went on this, the decision should have been made quickly, on Monday. By letting the world and his dog debate the issue for so long and then say no made the administration look indecisive and appear that it had something to hide. It will fuel the conspiracy theories. And the pictures will surely be leaked anyway.
2. To say that bin Laden was armed and hiding behind a wife being used as a human shield was an unforgiveable embellishment. The way it was expressed by John Brennan was to mock bin Laden as being unmanly and cowardly. It turned out to be incorrect and gave fuel, again, to conspiracy theories as well as accusations of cover-ups and illegality. Of all the mistakes of the week, this was by far the biggest.
3. It was a kill mission and no one should have been afraid to admit that. Bin Laden was a dead man as soon as the SEAL Team landed. There’s nothing wrong with that but the Obama administration should have been honest about it rather than spinning tales about bin Laden having a gun, reaching for a gun (the latest) and resisting (without saying how he resisted).
4. Too much information was released, too quickly and a lot of it was wrong. When it made the administration look good, the information flowed freely. When the tide turned, Jay Carney, Obama’s spokesman, clammed up completely. I’m a journalist; I like it when people talk about things. But from the administration’s perspective, it would have been much better to have given a very sparse, accurate description of what happened without going into too much detail, especially about the intelligence that led to the compound (an account which is necessarily suspect).
5. Obama tried to claim too much credit. Don’t get me wrong, he was entitled to a lot of credit. but sometimes less is more and it’s better to let facts speak for themselves. We didn’t need official after official to say how “gutsy” Obama was. Far better to have heaped praise on the CIA and SEALs (which, to be fair, was done most of the time) and talked less about Obama’s decision-making. And a nod to President George W. Bush would have been classy – and good politics for Obama.
6. Proof of death was needed. The whole point of the SEAL operation, rather than a B2 bombing that levelled the compound, was to achieve certainty. The administration has DNA evidence, facial recognition evidence and photographic evidence. Some combination of that evidence should have been collated and released swiftly. It’s not enough to say, effectively, “Trust me, I’m Obama” – especially given all the misinformation that was put out.
7. The mission should have been a ‘capture’ one. Notwithstanding 3. above and the legitimacy of killing bin Laden, I think a capture of bin Laden was probably possible and, in the long term, would have been better – not least because of the intelligence that could have been gleaned from interrogating him and the couriers. My hunch is that Obama didn’t want him alive because there would have been uncomfortable issues to address like whether he should be tried, where he should be held (it would have been Guantanamo – obviously) and the techniques for questioning him.
8. Obama’s rhetoric lurched from jingoistic to moralistic. During the initial announcement, Obama said that by killing bin Laden “we are once again reminded that America can do whatever we set our mind to”. If Bush had said that, he would have been mocked and laughed at, with some justification. But by today Obama was all preachy and holier than thou saying: “It is important for us to make sure that very graphic photos of somebody who was shot in the head are not floating around as an incitement to additional violence or as a propaganda tool. That’s not who we are. We don’t trot out this stuff as trophies.”
9. Triggering a torture debate was an avoidable own goal. Following on from 3. by discussing the intelligence, the administration walked into the issue of whether enhanced interrogation techniques yielded important information. That was certainly something they could have done without. Politically, it gave something for Republicans to use against Obama.
10. The muddle over Pakistan. Everyone I talk to with knowledge of these things tells me that Pakistan had to have given the green light for the raid in some form. But the Pakistanis, for good reasons, would not want this made public. Rather than say it would not comment on whether Pakistan had harboured bin Laden or was playing a double game, the White House poured petrol on the flames by encouraging criticism of Pakistan. That might have been deserved, but in terms of managing the region it was impolitic. The Pakistanis are clearly riled and the contradictions between the US and Pakistani accounts, again, fuel the conspiracy theories.
All this has meant that this week’s media story has become one about Obama and the White House more than one about the SEALs, the CIA and what killing bin Laden means. That’s exactly the wrong way round.
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jstan
climber
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"To interpret certain data as a lie may be a result of one's subjective bias."
When you reach an incorrect conclusion because of subjective bias
you are "lying" to yourself.
And
SUAP is now making a huge deal about a decision he implied to us
was something Obama should not have needed to "sleep on."
He also thinks starting a war using lies, allowing US corporations to sell fraudulent securities threatening nations around the globe, and bankrupting "The Only Superpower in the World" were major successes.
]
An unrelated matter is raised in last week’s NYT. I I post it here so I don’t have to start an off topic thread.
http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/pesticide-exposure-in-womb-affects-i-q/
April 21, 2011, 1:40 PM
Pesticide Exposure in Womb Affects I.Q.
By TARA PARKER-POPE
Pesticides on fruits, vegetables and other household products may lower a child’s I.Q.
Babies exposed to high levels of common pesticides in the womb have lower I.Q. scores than their peers by the time they reach school age, according to three new studies.
The research, based on data collected in New York and California from about 1,000 pregnant women and their babies, is certain to set off a new debate about the benefits of organic produce and the risks of chemicals found in the food supply and consumer products. The pesticides, called organophosphates, are commonly sprayed on food crops and are often used to control cockroaches and other pests in city apartments.
The latest findings are based on three separate but similar studies financed by the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences and the federal Environmental Protection Agency. Two were conducted by researchers at Mount Sinai School of Medicine and Columbia University and studied urban families in New York; the third was done by researchers at the School of Public Health at the University of California, Berkeley, and focused on children in Salinas, Calif., an agricultural area. All three were published online on Thursday in the journal Environmental Health Perspectives.
Each study began about a decade ago, when researchers recruited pregnant women who gave blood and urine samples that were used to measure pesticide exposure. In some instances, umbilical cord blood was tested. After the babies were born, the researchers continued to monitor the health of the children and also obtained regular urine samples to determine exposure to pesticides.
Over all, the studies found that women who had higher exposures to pesticides during pregnancy gave birth to children who eventually had lower I.Q. scores once they reached school age. In the Berkeley study, for instance, children with the highest levels of prenatal pesticide exposure scored 7 points lower on intelligence tests compared with children with the lowest levels of exposure. In that study, every 10-fold increase in organophosphate exposure detected during pregnancy corresponded to a 5.5 point drop in overall I.Q. scores.
“I think these are shocking findings,” said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a professor of pediatrics and director of the Children’s Environmental Health Center at Mount Sinai. “Babies exposed to the highest levels had the most severe effects. It means these children are going to have problems as they go through life.”
Dr. Landrigan compared the findings with research in the 1980s that linked childhood lead exposure to lower intelligence, dyslexia, higher risk for dropping out of school and a range of behavioral and developmental problems. As a result of that research, lead was removed from gasoline to prevent exposure from car exhaust, and it was also removed from paints and other consumer products.
The drop in I.Q. scores shown in the pesticide studies is similar to the drops shown in the earlier lead research, Dr. Landrigan said.
“When we took lead out of gasoline, we reduced lead poisoning by 90 percent, and we raised the I.Q. of a whole generation of children by four or five points,’’ said Dr. Landrigan. “I think these findings about pesticides should generate similar controversy, but I’m cautiously optimistic that they will have the effect of having the E.P.A. sharply reduce the use of organophosphate pesticides.”
Individuals can also do more to limit their own exposure. In homes with pest problems, sealing up cracks and crevices in baseboards and cleaning up food residue has been shown to be more effective at controlling cockroaches than using pesticides.
Steps can also be taken to minimize exposure to pesticides in foods, particularly among pregnant women. Buying organic foods can help because certified organic fruits and vegetables aren’t grown with organophosphate pesticides. Better washing and peeling of conventionally grown produce can also reduce exposure.
The Environmental Working Group offers a shopper’s guide showing which foods have the highest and lowest rates of pesticide exposure. Strawberries, peaches, celery, apples and spinach typically have the highest levels of pesticide residue among commercially grown fruits and vegetables. Onions, avocado, frozen corn and pineapple had the lowest levels of pesticide residue.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Show credible sources that state that Obama said he would "heal the world"
and "make Muslims like us"
What a dumb little fuk SUAP is
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shut up and pull
climber
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FASCIST:
Obama floats plan to tax cars -- by the mile...
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shut up and pull
climber
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Norton -- you have anger issues dude.
Remember -- there is no debt problem. Move along.
This is from a speech Obama made in 2006:
The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies.
Over the past 5 years, our federal debt has increased by $3.5 trillion to $8.6 trillion.That is “trillion” with a “T.” That is money that we have borrowed from the Social Security trust fund, borrowed from China and Japan, borrowed from American taxpayers. And over the next 5 years, between now and 2011, the President’s budget will increase the debt by almost another $3.5 trillion.
Numbers that large are sometimes hard to understand. Some people may wonder why they matter. Here is why: This year, the Federal Government will spend $220 billion on interest. That is more money to pay interest on our national debt than we’ll spend on Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program. That is more money to pay interest on our debt this year than we will spend on education, homeland security, transportation, and veterans benefits combined. It is more money in one year than we are likely to spend to rebuild the devastated gulf coast in a way that honors the best of America.
And the cost of our debt is one of the fastest growing expenses in the Federal budget. This rising debt is a hidden domestic enemy, robbing our cities and States of critical investments in infrastructure like bridges, ports, and levees; robbing our families and our children of critical investments in education and health care reform; robbing our seniors of the retirement and health security they have counted on.
Every dollar we pay in interest is a dollar that is not going to investment in America’s priorities.
Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Little Cut and Run
Pussy
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Not anger, just intolerance for massive ignorance.
Now run away, time to get to back to work at Taco Bell little boy.
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PAUL SOUZA
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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Karl, I enjoy reading your posts and it's a breath of fresh air to see people thinking for themselves and actually doing their own research.
Werner, seems we actually agree on some things.
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edejom
Boulder climber
Butte, America
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"I think you'd like Dick Cheney, I'm trying to get him to come to this years FL. He was close to coming two years ago, but he had back problems."-- fattrad
Fatty, better make sure that you bring lots of extra batteries (or the Energizer Bunny) to keep his pulse-less corpse moving and "alive" while picking up cig butts :-)
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richross
Trad climber
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Osama's bunker the last 8 or 9 years.
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shut up and pull
climber
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Norton -- what is your comment re Obama's 2006 speech re the debt?
Run!!!!
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