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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 10, 2016 - 10:38am PT
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slick websites i-b-goB
one wonders at the convoluted argument that ascribes the results of science to God as demonstrated by some reading in the Bible. Of course the Bible says nothing about electrons, protons, neutrons and mesons or any of that stuff... that "stuff" that was discovered and described by science, science which did not need to presume the existence of a super-natural being to obtain those results.
In analogy with other scientific biases, say the luminiferous aether once thought a necessity to understand light, the role of "God" in science is found to be unnecessary, light propagates without the need for this medium, as science is understandable without resort to "Deus ex machina"...
this sort of argument is no longer acceptable in science.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Sep 10, 2016 - 11:28am PT
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Thanks Ed, for your thoughtful reply!
After the resurrection...
John 20:19 So when it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be with you.”
...I wonder if Jesus knew the atoms are mostly empty space to go through shut doors, cool thought though?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 18, 2016 - 11:47am PT
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Another great read, right up there with Sapiens (Harari)...
Sean Carroll
The Big Picture
On the Origins of Life, Meaning and the Universe Itself
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 24, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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When it comes to practical matters, we are in a time of great scientific discoveries.
The history of paleontology is very interesting. Native Americans used to use fossil bones for medicinal purposes. No group of humans has walked much of the Earth without noticing fossil sea shells on mountains. How they got there is actually a fairly new idea.
There was a sort of golden age in geology and paleontology, where wealthy men thought it was important to study natural history. Many of the geological eras were defined in the 1800's, using fossil evidence. A rock in Russia could be correlated with a rock in England using fossil assemblages. This preceded Darwin by many decades, and in most circumstances, these geological periods have survived, and were in fact fairly accurate.
Some natural historians invoked the Biblical Great Flood now and then, but by then it seemed rather obvious that there never was a Biblical Great Flood. Not during human times. People were scouring the planet looking at fossils, and only rarely did the early paleontologists invoke the Great Flood. I'll post more on this tendency later.
I'm reading a book on the Permian Extinction right now, and it has a really good account of the history of paleontology. There was a sort of gold rush during the 1800's, to find new fossil species and name them after yourself, or at least name them after somebody. There were bodies, such as the Royal Society, where they would present papers, setting the basis for how modern science works. You really couldn't take credit for anything until you published, so there were a ton of rushed papers, and the quest for bones scoured the Earth. Most of the really big fossil locations were found by these guys, and they discovered the obvious stuff.
There were always religious overtones to tread lightly on. Practically everyone seemed to be a Christian or a Jew. These were not atheists out on a mission to destroy God. They were finding and naming new species, just as others sought out and named orchids, in a sort of orchid-fever during the 19th century.
Even today, it is a big thing to discover and name a new species. Anyone can really do it, but you need to know of every named species, and its characteristics.
Human bones are fairly rare, or at least the oldest ones are. The hominid tree in places sits on only a few fairly intact skeletons. If the skull was preserved, then anatomical differences became obvious. Africa is where early hominid evolution mainly occurred. However, the early paleontologists were mainly finding lots and lots of animal fossils.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 26, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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Oh oh. Distorted screen. Can't read it on my iPad.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 26, 2016 - 08:32pm PT
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OK. Fixed it. Thanx
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 26, 2016 - 10:39pm PT
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Thank God you're iPad's working!
;-)
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 26, 2016 - 11:56pm PT
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Base, I always try to read the bible with a tinge of common sense. If there were a world wide desecrating flood. How then could the bird have brought back to Noah a tree branch?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Go-B, I visited the Creationist website that you linked to, and it is so....simple minded (what is a good word for brain washed?), that it is comical.
Do you think that there is some sort of devil inspired conspiracy that is in charge of dating rocks? Did the devil place alluvial fan deposits 12,000 feet beneath the surface of the plains just to tempt us?
That would be the only explanation. All over the world, rocks have been dated. Everything fits. They have not only been dated, their depositional environments have been studied, their paleomagnetic signatures have been measured, even the spores and pollen has been studied, for pretty much every rock that outcrops on the planet.
None of it fits the biblical narrative. Certainly not a literal interpretation of 24/6 creation. Read this page from your website, then go buy a sophomore historical geology textbook from Amazon.
None of it fits the biblical narrative. The true story is far more fantastic and complicated than a few pages in the Old Testament. Ed has pointed out that the Bible didn't predict protons, or even atoms. It also did not predict Dinosaurs, or even much earlier life, for which there is abundant evidence.
I know Christian Geologists. I'm not sure how they reconcile the creation story in the Bible with their knowledge of the old Earth, but they do it. I assume that they consider the Genesis account as being a simplistic allegory that fit the knowledge of the day.
Anyway, it doesn't seem to shake their faith, and they don't go around saying that the Earth is only 12,000 years old.
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; as it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. -Mark 1:1-3
This is not the beginning of either John or Jesus. It is the beginning of the gospel when the Lord Jesus came to this earth and died upon a cross and rose again. That, my friend, is the gospel.
There are three beginnings recorded in Scripture. Let us put them down in chronological order.
1. “In the beginning was the Word” (John 1:1). This goes back to a dateless beginning, a beginning before all time. Here the human mind can only grope. It is logical rather than chronological because in my thinking, I must put my peg somewhere in the past in order to take off. If I see an airplane in the air, I assume there is an airport somewhere. I may not know where it is, but I know the plane took off from some place. So when I look around at the universe, I know that it took off from somewhere and that somewhere there is a God. But I don’t know anything about that beginning. God comes out of eternity to meet us. I just have to put down the peg at the point where He does meet us, back as far as I can think, and realize He was there before that.
2. “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). This is where we move out of eternity into time. However, although many people have been attempting to date this universe, no man so far knows. Man’s guesses have ranged from six thousand years to three billion years. We know so little, but when we come into His presence and begin to know even as we are known, then we will realize how we saw through a glass darkly. I’m sure we will marvel at our stupidity and our ignorance. Our God is a great God. He has plenty of time.
3. “The beginning of the gospel …” (Mark 1:1) is the same as “That which was from the beginning …” (1 John 1:1). This is dated. It goes back to Jesus Christ at the precise moment He took upon Himself human flesh. Jesus Christ is the gospel!
 Dr. J. Vernon McGee, from Edited Messages on Mark
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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The Bible wasn't written by fools stuck in the mud of ignorance, John I reads as a fascinating allegory for what is, if you consider the ambiguity of the term "word." Word seems to be equivalent to mind here and if you consider the stuff of the universe as deity or at least the manifestation of deity then it stands that mind was lodged in that stuff from the beginning. As literature, much or more of the Bible stands out as brilliant than ignorant.
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WBraun
climber
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The smoking gun of a newly evolved species
Such bullsh!t, more brainwashing by the gross materialists,
They even said: that they are mental speculators as usual.
"It's unclear if it evolved there or was brought into the Underground system…
from the freight and fruit movement into the docks of London," says Judd.
There is not enough research to give us an indication, he adds.
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