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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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"I don't believe any creation myth. I don't believe any explanation or attempted explanation, of reality." -dmt
So you don't believe in evolution then.
Voting Trump?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:32am PT
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the philodox's declaration?
"How could his views trump my own experiences or my own thoughts that have been generated from my own direct experiences? What is it that makes his thoughts or feelings more relevant or superior to the insubstantialities that I call my thoughts and feelings?"
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:33am PT
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Evolution is not creation myth
Of course Evo is a creation myth.
And if you hold in it, trust in it, support it... then you believe in it.
You should believe in it for the obvious reasons: it is science-based, it is evidence and reason-based; it is far and away the most valid and accurate "creation myth" for explaining the origin of life on our planet - I mean if you care about that sort of thing. Some of us do.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:38am PT
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Evo is a human creation myth.
Here too, you need to look at things from more than one pov.
...
The naysayer's best argument is that evolution, the understanding thereof, is not "vital knowledge". That may or may not be true depending on circumstances and goals.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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I don't believe it, love.
da mi basia mille, deinde centum,
dein mille altera, dein secunda centum,
deinde usque altera mille, deinde centum.
dein, c#m milia multa fecerimus,
conturbabimus illa, ne sciamus,
aut ne quis malus inuidere possit,
cum tantum sciat esse basiorum.
...
And I'm not a naysayer.
I wasn't speaking of you.
I did not say evolution is not true. I just don't believe it. -dmt
If you think evolution is true, if that's your judgment, then you believe in it.
Not everything including words is seen or defined from a religious pov. Give it a try.
...
This bears repeating...
"I don't believe any creation myth. I don't believe any explanation or attempted explanation, of reality." -dmt
Lest we forget.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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Big bang is creation myth...
in keeping with your views, consistency would have you run the universe backward in time... and you would then find some time at which everything originated... aka "the Big Bang," which was what the initial cosmologists did before you were born.
One can then speculate on the events that lead to the "Big Bang" and in that speculation propose all sorts of things. The physical-cosmology explanations are interesting to me, and do not have to do with "myth." In spite of our prejudice against thinking of the time "before" the Big Bang, it is certainly a legitimate question, though it gets very complicated.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:24am PT
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The veil has not been penetrated.
but it has...
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 01:55pm PT
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Pray tell...
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 22, 2016 - 06:06pm PT
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DMT:
You’re like a bad penny. You keep turning up asking me whether or not I’ve “read that book yet.” I did order a book today, but it’s by an art critic (“The Art of Rivalry” by Smee). Smee tells stories about the rivalries between four pairs of artists (Manet & Degas, Matisse and Picasso, Pollock and de Kooning, and Freud and Bacon) who competed with each other and drove each other to breakthroughs. He claims that the rivalries were intimacies of betrayal and innovative triggers. (I’m “into” classical rivalries in business because they expose the same things to me.) (Yikes, I guess that makes me an evolutionist!!!)
You will finally shame me into spending time and money on the book you continue to sell.
Craig:
You’ve stumped me. A summary of enlightenment is not anything I can provide objectively or subjectively—even if I thought I knew what it is. (I appeal to others here on this site to take a stab at it.)
What continues to arise in my mind is that “Enlightenment” doesn’t exist, but I will assume that won’t help at all. I can’t even think of a good book that summarizes the notion. I can think of funny books, esoteric books, huge broad historical renditions, and of course the many many different disciplinary expositions in scriptures and books. (I have bookshelves of them.)
Wikipedia has a decent page on Enlightenment (spiritual) that is worth perusing, but the problem with that is that it seems necessary to know what the words they’re using mean (e.g., “moska,” “liberation,” etc, and folks argue about those *really mean* incessantly.
Nonetheless, . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_(spiritual);
As for my comments that “everything is, as you say ‘not real’” the basis for that claim was initially informed by my studies in institutionalization, socialization, social construction, and post-modern complaints about hegemonic intellectual authorities in academia. Those ideas began to flower, became dynamic, and merged with a 35-year meditation practice focusing on what most folks call mind / awareness. As PSP gently reminds us time and time again, nothing much at all of mind can be found. (And if you really get serious about that investigation, nothing at all of the mind can be found.)
Without a mind, any “thing” would seem to be baseless.
Look, every time you claim “bullsh*t,” you are pointing at an illusion that’s been generated by someone, some group, or some process.
Now . . . what’s NOT bullsh*t? (I mean, really.)
There is a practice in improvisation in the theatre among actors that you could try for yourself. (It works amazingly well with whole-hearted groups of participants that helps them to suspend their beliers.) Have people walk around with each other in a circle, and as often as they can, have them point to something (anything) and yell out a noun that does not name what they are pointing at. For example, a person sees a chair, points at it, and yells out fiercely, “ANTELOPE!” With everyone doing that, it generates a calliope of labelling that puts one into a Alice-like Wonderland. The whole scene and experience starts to take-on a very unreal quality. Nothing is what it seems. The whole-hearted nature of pointing, yelling out improper labels, and hearing and seeing others do the same seems to make one feel as though they living in a dream and that those things aren’t what they seem to be. (It’s a way to generate a kind of trance, but the trance provides the experience that undermines what appears to be solid and objective.)
As for this reality that we call the waking dream state, things exist . . . just not as they seem. What are things? We can’t say.
Sorry.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 22, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
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That's a stab and a half Mike
Thanks
I will try to narrow it down on my questions
But I guess I'm interested in how an enlightened person differs from a normal well balanced open minded person.
Once you become enlightened, does it last for the rest of your life?
or can it come and go?
How many people would you estimate that are enlightened that are alive today?
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 07:10pm PT
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Charles Darwin famously speculated
Classic start guessing.
We cannot know what combinations of chemical processes were present billions of years ago
Thus cluelessness, .... but guessing is the scientific method as said by guessing next below;
evolutionary biologists can explain how and what happened pretty well from that moment on
And then the whopper
but a belief in a "creator" is no longer necessary to explain the beginning of life
Because "WE" know it all scientists are so good at guessing with zero proof, as we don't need proof, we only need to guess.
And then even more ....
But I guess I'm interested in how an enlightened person differs from a normal well balanced open minded person.
Guessing again and projecting thru bias that an enlightened person isn't normal and well balanced,
all while they're clueless to what and enlightened person really is.
Just keep on guessing is the modern way and masquerade it as advanced knowledge ......
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 07:58pm PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:33pm PT
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The Plague Doctor
From a mathematical expansion: a virtual integral from interwoven contours in C, given by dz/dt = w+1/w and dw/dt = xCos(y)+iySin(x) , z=x+iy.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:43pm PT
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Pray tell...
where does the "bang" for the Big Bang come from?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:55pm PT
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"The arts are not a way to make a living. They are a very human way of making life more bearable. Practicing an art, no matter how well or badly, is a way to make your soul grow, for heaven's sake." -Kurt Vonnegut
"New knowledge is the most valuable commodity on earth. The more truth we have to work with, the richer we become." -kv
"If people think nature is their friend, then they sure don't need an enemy." -kv
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 09:23pm PT
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where does the "bang" for the Big Bang come from?
Hey, you're the physicist. I'm just a dumbass doctor!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 22, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
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Thanks, Ed!
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