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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 18, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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I’d say you’re doing good work, Mark. You have a role to fill. It may make no difference whatsoever, but it seems to me to be a contribution to the drama, the lila. The rain cannot be without the thunder, so too the flowers cannot be without the thunder.
It’s a weird world, isn’t it?
Be well.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 18, 2016 - 08:13pm PT
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If we discern our innate talents and manifest them naturally and completely they will be nourishing to others and we will be in accord with the Tao.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 18, 2016 - 09:52pm PT
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^^^^ Yes.
No chance, however.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 19, 2016 - 06:53am PT
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^^^^^^^^^^. No. Harris is misguided and naive.
There is no threading of the needle when it comes to relativism, John. Compromise, consensus, multi pluralism, multiculturalism sounds nice, and I admit that it’s what we teach to younger generations, but we’re trying to make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. Conflict is necessary, or it’s boredom for all around.
(This is the thing that I have against spiritualism, especially new-age spiritualism or even the modern version of rationalism: “we can all get along” . . . . “The political (idealogical) view of Star Trek is right around the corner.” Oh, Lordy.
Certain things may be possible but not truly advisable. As I said to Mark, one cannot have the flowers without the thunder. It just doesn’t work that way.
If you’re not comfortable with extreme ambiguity and paradox, you’re a pollyanna in some unicorn fairyland.
Best review some of the writing from Lewis Carroll.
http://www.notable-quotes.com/c/carroll_lewis.html
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 19, 2016 - 08:24am PT
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misguided and naive
yeah, how so? be specific, valid and accurate for a change
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 19, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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"Conquering evil, not the opponent, is the essence of swordsmanship."
~ Yagyu Munenori (1571-1646)
Some clouds bellow thunder and bring no rain...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 19, 2016 - 12:37pm PT
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No. Harris is misguided and naive. There is no threading of the needle when it comes to relativism, John
Ambiguity in the face of extremism is no virtue.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 19, 2016 - 07:18pm PT
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I've been probing enlightenment as a subject matter that can quantified scientifically, or not.
I got this response from another forum
Re: Spiritual Enlightenment ?
Postby Angel » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:59 pm
Enlightenment is a word somebody
made up to explain something they
experienced. I don't claim to be spiritual
nor enlightened. I experience things that
science has yet to explain. Like drowning
and hearing a voice telling me to relax
and breath. Them being in a dream ~
under water and remembering to
relax and breath. There is something
about the soul/ spirit /self ~ what so
ever you call it~ traveling in water to
the clouds. God & Jesus come in the clouds.
Thus ~ traversing in the winter would be
difficult as the water is frozen.
I am a servant ~ I serve.
I do not feast. LoL
not sure what to think, but fun
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 19, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
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I am a servant ~ I serve.
Yes .... that's the only thing period ...... there's nothing beyond that.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Aug 19, 2016 - 08:01pm PT
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^^^Beautifully put, Werner!!!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 20, 2016 - 11:42am PT
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HFCS: yeah, how so? be specific, valid and accurate for a change
When you can get to the bottom of anything, finally, accurately, concretely, please let me know. I’d like to see it. Anything and everything is ambiguous and paradoxical. If one sees that and sits with it a while, it can lead one to some mightily startling implications about What This Is.
Jgill: Ambiguity in the face of extremism is no virtue.
What is extremism? What is virtue? . . . and who says that ambiguity in the extreme is no virtue? You? That kind of statement could well be indicative of a judeo-christian point of view. Oh, yes, by all means, . . . control yourself. Control your thoughts, your emotions, your desires, go along with the crowd, be moderate, take the middle of the road, don’t go too far, don’t get too far behind, compromise, believe in what others say (consensus), temper your passions.
Not that you would care much about what practitioners of some long-founded spiritual practices are, but usually for the naive and novices, it’s much along those lines: purification, renunciation, be “a good person,” give up your desires, be selfless.
Oddly enough for more advanced spiritual practices, it’s pretty much the opposite (vajrayana, tantra, etc.): to see what and who you really are, work with what you have—your passions, all of the evil things that you used to think you were, surf your feelings, fully get into your emotions, use intoxicants liberally. (Funny, isn’t it? It’s much as climbers often do.) Living fully does not mean necessarily mean that one should become an ascetic—unless you feel most fully alive then. Live. Fully. In all ways. Tap all dimensions.
Yeah, let’s not get extreme about anything. Especially life.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Aug 20, 2016 - 08:28pm PT
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... and who says that ambiguity in the extreme is no virtue? You? That kind of statement could . . . (MikeL)
Extreme ambiguity? That's certainly not what I said.
Sycorax has a point, but its subtlety might be ineffective or get lost in the current atmosphere. Social satire that critiques Islam could have dire consequences.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 21, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
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Exciting!
It looks like Oregon, Idaho or Wyoming wilderness might be just the place to experience this.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 21, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
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Jgill: Extreme ambiguity? That's certainly not what I said.
Ok. That’s what I heard. (Who’s to blame . . . the swordsman, the warrior he pierced, or the sword?)
You seem to be saying that extremism is the rubric. It made me wonder. What is extremism? I think you are referring to what’s been called, “radical Islam;” hence a form of extremism.
When some of us say that nothing can be pinned down concretely, accurately, or completely, that doesn’t only refer to what is physical or material. The so-called quality (really the opposite of a quality) applies to everything, such as “extremism.” Ed has argued with me (and Paul, perhaps) about metaphors. In the past I’ve said that any notion is metaphorical inasmuch as it *cannot be* literal.
I understand that may become an issue for those oriented to technical views of “things” and language. Materialism cannot stand on the groundlessness of ambiguity. Materialism, objectivity, demands—no requires—that something is known for sure. Upon that rock materialists build their church. There must be something unchangeable, permanent, that lies at the bottom of everything.
God (and physicists) build everything out of nothing, but the nothingness shows through. No-thing shows through everything.
Where does that leave one?
“Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.”
(Sherlock Holmes in “The Sign of Four”)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Aug 22, 2016 - 07:35am PT
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HFCS: . . . you might enjoy this short exchange between Pinker and Wright re science's influence on meaning, value and purpose.
Why? I watched it. What is it that you take from it? I mean, if I got a nickel for every time he said “I think,” or “I believe,” I could get a Grande Latte at Starbucks.
How could his views trump my own experiences or my own thoughts that have been generated from my own direct experiences? What is it that makes his thoughts or feelings more relevant or superior to the insubstantialities that I call my thoughts and feelings? There is no difference in qualities.
I appreciate greatly your love for fields of facts that you call science. I hear and read that in your posts.
Science is a method based upon a vision of what is real. You can hear that in the three minute clip from this man. And that vision of reality is based upon beliefs. I doubt (a belief in and of itself, of course) that this man (and most every other person) would not change his opinion about what is real, important, and valuable even in the face of strong empirical evidence because they would say that nothing can *really be proven.* Those beliefs are foundational and can rarely be challenged in anyone (whether physicalist or spiritualist or whatever). It’s simply how we’ve become socialized and institutionalized by forces beyond our own intelligence. (And you can see it in how this man talks.)
Metaphysics, ontology, teleology, ethics are not *the things.* Epistemology is. When one can see the insubstantiality of one’s own beliefs and feelings as ways of knowing, and how they arise without conclusion, only then can one start to come to any truth about where and what this thing we call reality is.
In the meantime, it’s all interesting speculations that cannot be substantiated with finality.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:03am PT
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it’s all interesting speculations that cannot be substantiated with finality.
But HFCS already made finality on all his crazy mental speculations and from all his crazy youtube brainwashing ......
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Aug 22, 2016 - 08:06am PT
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Hey MikeL.
I was hoping you can give me a summary on what you know about enlightenment, and how everything is, as you say "not real" in some way.
I'm doing a little research and don't want to dig through these threads for a decent summary that you and Largo have provided before.
Or should we discuss this on the mind thread?
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