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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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"dirtbag,
He WON THE ELECTION, remember? Clearly more people are non-biased then are biased concerning his race or else he would not be president. If we were all so bigoted as a nation as the libs suggest, how the hell did he win? "
Because there are now becoming more brown people and for younger whites, it isn't a big deal. Obama gobbled up those votes.
For older, more conservative whites, it is a big, big deal.
Edit: I've never said the screaming tea and cracker party was a majoority. They are a minority, but an angry one, pissed off at losing power.
You think the segregationist mentality magically went away?
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:24pm PT
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I've never said the screaming tea and cracker party was a majority. They are a minority, but an angry one, pissed off at losing power.
You think the segregationist mentality magically went away?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:26pm PT
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To be honest, my feelings are a little hurt being called the
nastiest poster. Is it something I said?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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Weirdlouis: I should add that yes of course you could find Dem bigots. It is notthe rhetoric of the party however, nor the tactics of dem candidates. Your presidential candidates were using these tactics. We are not talk about closeted extremists at the fringes of the RNC. This is the mainstream. Stop pretending otherwise.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:27pm PT
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Jim:
You made a blanket statement that you would quit public office to advance your personal interests. My question was intended only to show the matter is in fact nuanced.
We really do have to stop thinking the world is binary if we are to survive.
So now the discussion is where should office holders draw the line when weighing the duty they are seeking versus pursuing personal interest.
This is a question voters have every right, no duty, to ask.
The same problem exists with Jeff's advocacy of war. It too was a blanket statement and implied that all wars were equal. When pushed on the point he has agreed that all wars are not equal.
So there too the discussion comes down to the need for candidates to explain their attitudes toward war while seeking office.
This is very hard to do. But now we have people standing up and advocating wars with no explanation of risks/benefits. Bush did it.
Are we to expect this to become the norm?
And to repeat a point I made above.
If we allow the racial question to develop further heat, very soon we will have a repeat of what we saw in the 50's.
We need to begin behaving as though we understand these questions are not simple and the answers are also not simple.
What we say needs to reflect this.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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"Just as silence does not equate to social justice, impassioned dissent does not equate to racism. The friction of diverse minds is the lifeblood of democracy. When people raise important issues to consciousness, diverse viewpoints are considered, fears are dealt with, and the irrational is (one hopes) countered.
Conversely, democracy collapses inward on itself when complex issues are ignored in favor of race-baiting. Accusing the Republicans of being racists just by virtue of their opposition to President Obama's plan is not a dialogue. It is group pathology. The fact that it's gaining traction is truly alarming. We need more - not less - serious debate on whether President Obama's proposal for a government-sponsored health plan will bankrupt the country. Yet these important issues are lost when the Democrats increasingly dismiss their critics by simply extrapolating racism."
Williams
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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On the Palin issue, my problem was not so much that she quit, but that she pretended quitting was the heroic and responsible thing to do when in fact the problem was of her own making. Had she just taken responsibility (party of othe people taking responsibility) I'd probably have given her a pass (though still reveled in the schadenfreude).
TGT as usual you miss the point. Opposition to the health care plan isn't what is being characterized as racist. That's a clever deflection though.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:38pm PT
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"If race were such an overwhelming big deal in this country, how did we elect an African American man for president. Obviously it is NOT such a big deal i.e. the results speak for themselves. I honestly believe it is a big deal to the libs because they harp about it so. Sort of like the classic psychology analogy of the old maid looking under the bed because she fears a man (intent on harming her) is lurking there. It is a bigger deal to the libs than it is to anyone else."
Howeird, Do you remember when you were arguing that we should pay attention to the right because Obama only won by a few percentage points? Do you remember? Now you are trying to say that racism isn't a big problem because Obama won, as though he won by such a large number that this proves that racism is no longer a problem in America.
if even just 20 percent of Americans are racist, then it is a serious problem.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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If our country is still racist enough to pretend that we aren't racIst, then were still too racist.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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I didn't want to believe it but see it clear as day now. Veiled appeal to racism is being used to stir up a vocal minority to believe Obama isn't american, isn't one of us, and is a threat to the nation.
Why? Because the technique works
Peace
Karl
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jstan
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:42pm PT
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A cadre of people in the past have acted as though they believe incivility, gross language, and anger always carry the argument.
Norton has been exploring to see if people can handle that which they dish out.
My observation has been that when a person displays anger they admit publicly they are unable to deal with the situation at hand.
The person voluntarily removes themself from the discussion.
As a side issue I also think anger is counterproductive to both logical thinking and effective presentation.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:43pm PT
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Karl come now. All presidents have their citizenship questioned and their desire to provide health care framed as a secret plot to give billions or trillions in reparations to black people. Why can't you just stop seeing why you want to see?
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dirtbag
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:44pm PT
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Yep Karl, it's been going on dog whistle style for some time. Lee Atwater openly used it. It's nothing new.
State's rights, welfare queens, Willie Horton...there has never been a shortage of dog whistles to stir up racism.
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Jim E
climber
away
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:51pm PT
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Lois wrote "1. I had a bunch of libs witch-hunting and bankrupting me..."
Prove that is the case.
You LIE!!!
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jstan
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 03:55pm PT
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Sheila Bair, head of FDIC, has been advocating for some time that assets
acquired by the government while dealing with the financial meltdown should
be valued for sale by public auction, and not be transferred without
transparency. This idea has applicability to toxic assets in the TARP program.
This announcement concerns the initial use of this approach.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
September 16, 2009
Media Contact:
Andrew Gray (202) 898-7192
angray@fdic.gov
The FDIC has signed a bid confirmation letter with Residential Credit Solutions
(RCS), the winning bidder in a pilot sale of receivership assets that the FDIC is
conducting to test the funding mechanism for the Legacy Loans Program (LLP).
The pilot sale was conducted on a competitive bid basis, and final bids were
received on Monday, August 31, 2009. A total of 12 consortiums bid to
purchase an ownership interest in a limited liability company (LLC), to which the
FDIC will convey a portfolio of residential mortgage loans with an unpaid
principal balance of approximately $1.3 billion owned by the FDIC as Receiver
of Franklin Bank, SSB, Houston, Texas. The pilot sale involves financing offered
by the receivership to the LLC using an amortizing note guaranteed by the
FDIC. Bidders for the pilot sale were given the chance to bid two different
leverage options, 6-to-1 or 4-1, or to submit a cash bid for a 20 percent
ownership interest.
The bid received from RCS for the financed sale of assets to the LLC using 6-
to-1 leverage was determined to be the offer that would result in the greatest
return for the receivership of all competing bids. RCS will pay a total of
$64,215,000 in cash for a 50 percent equity stake in the LLC, and the LLC will
issue a note of $727,770,000 to the FDIC as Receiver. The note will be
guaranteed by FDIC in its corporate capacity. Based on the FDIC's analysis and
assumptions, the present value of this bid equals 70.63 percent of the
outstanding principal balance of this portfolio. The FDIC received various other
bids that were very competitive. The FDIC anticipates selling the note at a
future date. After the closing, which is expected to occur later this month, RCS
will manage the portfolio and service the loans under the Home Affordable
Modification Program (HAMP) guidelines.
The LLP is part of the Public-Private Investment Program announced in March
by the Secretary of the Treasury, the Federal Reserve, and the FDIC, and is
being developed to help banks remove troubled loans and other assets from
their balance sheets so that banks can raise new capital and be better
positioned to provide lending to further the recovery of the U.S. economy. FDIC
conducted the pilot sale to test this funding mechanism as part of the
development of the LLP. The FDIC will analyze the results of this test sale to
determine whether the LLP can be used to remove troubled assets from the
balance sheets of open banks, and in turn spur lending to further support the
credit needs of the economy.
Further details about the sale will be published after the closing later this
month.
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Nibs
Trad climber
Humboldt, CA
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Sep 16, 2009 - 04:05pm PT
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Howwierd - I appreciate your tone and participation, but I think it is naive to assess that race is not a factor from the right. While I agree that Obama's election is a hopeful sign that, as a country, we are moving beyond racism; but it ain't dead.
I have difficulty believing that Joe Wilson's out burst and blatant disrespect of the Office of President and Congressional rules was not race based. Note that instead of a reprimand from party leaders, that would have been the norm, he/they are getting as much political mileage out of it as they can.
Frankly what is going on is disturbing - displaying (and concealing) weapons at Obama rallies?? While I support the 2nd Amendment, shouldn't someone from the Republican leadership state that this isn't a good idea??
How is it that moderate republicans have been kept in lock step with the extreme right of the party, is it by Rush and Glen Beck?? I truly miss the conservatives of my father like William F. Buckley...I was brought up to believe that intelligent people can agree to disagree civilly and have always attempted to understand both sides of an argument.
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 16, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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Nibs - I'd rather discuss or argue than fight but sometimes we are not allowed a choice. For instance:
Should we be over 'there'?
Doesn't really matter how we would answer that question
because we are there, we're tired, and we can't see the end.
Can't even console ourselves that the enemy is as tired as we are.
It is a fallacy that a long war will weaken an occupied enemy.
It will most likely make your enemy stronger.
With severe deprivation they adapt and respond accordingly.
While here at home with every death reported we have to deal with
a public opinion trajectory that slides rapidly from supportive to negative to downright hostile.
People just get sick and tired of a moment of silence at a ballgame.
They just want to be told its over.
Despite the fact that we have markedly increased our
operational intensity we're not seeing any progress.
What we're dealing with here is potentially a global
conflagration that requires constant vigilance in order to suppress.
You see its because our enemy has realized they are fighting guys from the future.
Now that's as brilliant as it is infuriating.
If you live like its the past, and you behave like its the past
then guys from the future find it very hard to see you.
If you throw away your cell phone, shut down your email,
pass all your instructions face to face, hand to hand,
cutting back on technology until you just disappear into the crowd.
No flags, no uniforms. We just got your basic grunts on the ground over
there and they're looking around and saying well
who the hell is it we're fighting.
In a situation like this your friends are dressed just like your enemy.
You need to fully understand that these people do not want to negotiate.
Not at all. They want the universal Caliphate across the face of the Earth,
and they want every infidel converted or killed.
So what has changed is that our allegedly unsophisticated
enemy has cottoned on to the factually unsophisticated truth that we are an easy target.
Our world, as we know it, is a lot simpler to put to an end than you might think.
We take our foot off the throat of this enemy for one minute and our world will change completely.
from -Body of Lies (2008)
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 16, 2009 - 04:20pm PT
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"As a side issue I also think anger is counterproductive to both logical thinking and effective presentaion."
jstan, your posts are always worth reading, but, to me, your statement above cannot be overemphasized. When I was actively practicing law I used to enjoy going up against the screamers, because they were so easy to tie up in knots. After a while it ceased being sporting.
John
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apogee
climber
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Sep 16, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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"Perhaps to YOU race is a huge big deal - you speak literally non-stop about it. To the rest of the folks, it is not quite such a big deal or major issue."
WeirdObtuseLois, once again you ignore realities that might compromise your 'view' (whatevvah the feck that is). To say that because Obama won racism doesn't exist, or is not an issue right now is absolutely ludicrous. Obama won by what...~54%? That leaves a rather large remaining margin in which plenty of white sheets and hoods could live, wouldn't you say?
"Just as silence does not equate to social justice, impassioned dissent does not equate to racism."
Oh, that it was that simple. Besides the obvious evidence of racist comments and actions (Beck's comments, hanging effigies), there is an undeniable tone of racism in the anger being displayed by the whackjobs at too many of these teaparties, healthcare demonstrations, and in the media. TGT, your artful quote has little relevance to the realities of today.
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