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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 11:41am PT
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The fossil record; a topic of interest to many I think. A question for you fossil types, doesn't
the Cambrian Explosion present a few problems with the Darwinian Guessiry of Evolution.
Or is this another one of those topics we shouldn't bring up and attempt to discuss
Doug
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dirtbag
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:03pm PT
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Gobee those prints are soooo lovely.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:11pm PT
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So.... What about the Cambrian explosion? For starters, it's not mentioned in any creation myth. So there's that. The record shows a sharp increase in biodiversity and the appearance of adaptations that kept pace with the planetary environmental changes going on at the time. So unless there is some specific argument about the details of current theories, just bringing up the topic doesn't do much for bolstering the creationist line.
(and Gobee, yes, those prints are lovely. The palettes and draftsmanship are superb. Did you make them?)
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:26pm PT
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Jan - that makes sense. Now I follow what you meant when you said that H. Erectus was gone by 400,000 years ago. In fact, we were on the same page all along. But the way you phrased it made it sound as though you were saying something altogether different.
Saying that "Homo Erectus was gone from the earth by 400,000 years ago" and leaving it at that is kind of a misleading statement at best. It implies that by 400,000 years ago the only H. Sapiens species were the new ones migrating out of Africa, and that East Asia was barren of Hominids from 400,000 years ago until H. Sapiens arrived much more recently.
If you come down on the side of the debate that emphasizes "split and speciate" then it would be better to say "by 400,000 years ago H. Erectus had evolved into a variety of similar but distinct species, one of which lived until 40,000 years ago in east asia." Or if you're on the other side of the debate, you can just say that a population of H. Erectus lived until 40,000 years ago in in east asia, undergoing some changes during that time."
Anyway, no matter how you slice it, H. Erectus was clearly the most successful member of our genus, ever.
Which brings me to another question, if you don't mind: I'm not 100% clear on from whom exactly either Neanderthal or H. Sapiens evolved. As best I can tell it seems that H. Sapiens evolved directly from H. Erectus in Africa, while the line to H. Neanderthalis is from H. Erectus -> H. Heidelbergensis -> H. Neanderthalis. With the last transition happening in Europe. Another less likely alternative is that Neanderthals evolved directly from Erectus.
If you have an opinion on the subject, I'd be very interested to hear it!
One of the reasons I'm asking is that assuming that the former is true, H. Sapiens moving from Africa into Europe must have encountered something very strange! A highly evolved (functionally equivalent) hominid that looked and probably acted radically different - three whole species jumps away! It's hard not to wonder what that experience must have been like, and how that experience may have shaped us.
After all, if the most modern H. Sapiens has been around for 60,000 years, at least 20,000 years (30%) of that was in a shared environment with Neanderthals.
Then I suppose there was also interaction between H. Sapiens and Rhodesiensus, and H. Erectus. But both of those must have been a little closer and/or more primitive - less of a threat.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:32pm PT
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Gobee - hope your friend in prison comes through as unscathed as possible - and gets out soon!
Now Jennie thinks that any studies looking at Christians shouldn't count him as one. Because he's in prison, that somehow invalidates him as a data point.
JStan and I disagree, and I suspect you would too.
GO
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:34pm PT
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"those prints are lovely. The palettes and draftsmanship are superb. Did you make them?"
I WISH!!!
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:38pm PT
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Have we not seen before the fossil that Dirtbag showed?
Jennie:
Gobee posted about a fellow in Corcoran who, in his opinion has become a good christian. So if you are to eliminate such an individual from the roll of YOUR good christians you will have to eliminate everyone who has ever been convicted of a crime, or edit the criminal record for all those who have since accepted christ. Do you suppose someone will then advance the proposition that someone incarcerated may have other reasons for claiming to be a christian?
I know what you are concerned about but no one has proposed a way to do it that has been agreed to. From a statistical point of view might it be possible the number of "bad" christians will partially or entirely be offset by the number of "bad" atheists? In that case your study's conclusions would be unaffected.
Perhaps you will see how hopeless it is to attempt what you are trying to do if I raise the question whether the number of "bad" Democrats is greater or less than the number of "bad" republicans.
Here also we can not even define the word "bad."
What you are doing, good as it seems, is in fact very damaging. If we all are to work together to accomplish that which we need to do, we have to be able to communicate and to reach agreements. We have to treat language very poorly to do that which you seek. You have been called on this and we have spent time on a hopeless chase leaving much more important things to languish.
If we really want to move forward the the ideas advanced by Jesus we need to do everything possible to restore our ability to work together.
If you look at the problems Jesus faced and the society with which he was working, it was the inability to work together that ultimately killed him.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:40pm PT
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"A highly evolved (functionally equivalent) hominid that looked and probably acted radically different - three whole species jumps away! It's hard not to wonder what that experience must have been like, and how that experience may have shaped us."
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 12:41pm PT
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My original issue, as I’ve written several times, is NOT with you, the title, or your definition of Christian. I objected to spurious STUDIES which suggests Christian precepts are invalid and cites numbers of Christians in prison as proof.
Jennie, had you simply objected to the conclusion of the study, I don't think you would have had much disagreement. As I've said, showing causation isn't something you can do merely by counting heads. However you have been suggesting something quite stronger than that: that you disagree with the data itself. Its the claim you made that the prison population doesn't "count" because they're desperate individuals - that's what rings false.
Sounds like you're retreating from that idea. If so, I think you and I are much more aligned, at least on this subject.
GO
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:24pm PT
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Shesh, gone less than 24 hours......and so much to read and comment on.
First, Ghost: It is obvious to all that have met me my God is not a plastic surgeon. hehehe. Always enjoy your humor, Ghost !
Hi to Riley and Jaybro, see you guys at JTree anytime soon?
Norton, could I not believe in evolution and still be a jesus follower ?
Fet: regarding your poll.....I am a pragmatist and believe in jesus because it works. If it didn't I wouldn't. Didn't see that option on your poll.
Cragman, in your water/well story to me the most significant part was not highlighted. The last phrase, "you have to give it all away before you can get anything back." Doesn't jesus say, "he who loses his life for my sake, will save it." ? Maybe you did, I was trying to speed read to catch up as I have to blast off to Orange Co. :D
Cintune on 10/14 2:39 I love your sense of humor also, Dude.
Someone said something about, "so God doesn't send rain and you lose the farm, what about that?"
Well, I am losing the farm....well the place Dan and I were going to retire. Just spent last several days packing up the hopes and dreams. First day was hard. Yesterday, talking and listening to my best friend jesus, I began to know that I would have stayed in the rut of my life and played golf and lived the normal routine.
Jesus knew lynnie wants so much more from life so he used challenges and problematic situations to grow me and to change my life direction. It's like jumping out of an airplane. I can imagine I might be freaked out, but after doing it the new experience would far outweigh the scariness of the situation.
I need to unload the van and then hope to address jstan's thought provoking comments. Really, jstan we almost came to fisticuffs ??? I think you meant verbally, I'm not good at hitting other human beings....:DD and I never thought of myself as tough as nails......hmmmm, lots to think about. Peace, lynne
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Flanders!
Trad climber
June Lake, CA
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:28pm PT
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Lynnie,
You should have kicked jstan's butt ! In love of course :)
Doug
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:34pm PT
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Lynne, my family gives thanks before almost every dinner to God or nature or whatever we owe our existance too, and it's a very rewarding experience. I pray that you stay strong and get through these tough times ok.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:39pm PT
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Jstan and GOclimb,
I appreciate your responses. This comes down to a difference of opinion but I appreciate your posts. I see several things I didn't before but my opinion about using prison counts to make sweeping generalizations about validity of Christian ethics hasn't changed.
I won't continue to belabor the issue here. Thanks for your time.
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:40pm PT
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Lynne: "could I not believe in evolution and still be a jesus follower?"
You asked Norton, but I for one don't see why not. But he's your Jesus, not entirely the one in the Bible or the one that, say, abortion clinic bombers use to justify their acts.
There are way too many versions of Jesus. Until you find out the details, you really can't be sure which one someone might be talking about.
I'm fine with your Jesus, it's some other people's that really bug me.
And I'm sorry to hear about what life is dishing you, hang in there and here's hoping for better days ahead, sincerely.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:42pm PT
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Doug, we should have arm wrestled for the deciding factor of jess who was right, hehehe. Although he has pretty long arms.....maybe first to 5 in bocce. Looks like yo made it home ok.....Hope it's cold enough for you :D
Fet, Thanks Guy !!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Oct 15, 2009 - 01:46pm PT
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My dog in this fight is that I don't want decadent 'creationism' preached as science in the public school. Kids have enough stuff to deal with. Present it as philosophy or something, and I have no problem.
It AIN'T SCIENCE!
Also I think it's cool that Lynne and Jstan can have such opposing views and still be friends, sorta, even though she poked his eye out....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2009 - 02:01pm PT
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Lynne, sure, there are many people who do believe that humans evolved
through millions of years of chance and natural selection on this planet.
Many of those people also believe that some 2000 years ago, "god" made a decision
to award a "soul" to those humans fortunate to be born after god made this
decision. Too bad for the people immediately before that moment of course.
Stroke of luck when your birthday was, apparently.
So, those who believe that having a soul given from god are quite sure
that they also have been guaranteed a life after death, and that all is well for them because few of us want it all to end at physical death.
This concept of humans having developed the consciousness for wanting a life after death can be observed as far back as some 20,000 years ago in the unearthed burials of bodies lying with physical artifacts placed by others.
My mom is 93 and in a full care nursing home. I am very grateful that she
derives peace and comfort from her Catholic beliefs, just as I do in my atheism.
You know Lynne, I do respect your beliefs. If they give your life meaning,
and most importantly, comfort, then that is a very good thing!
Best wishes
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jstan
climber
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Actually losing the eye was no big deal. I could not see anything before either. At the time of the fight I asked Anders if I should arm wrestle Lynnie. He suggested, I would not do that were I you.
And yes Jennie we have appreciated your contributions. The world is so complex it is hard to know what is the right thing to do. There is a gate on the road that leads to becoming better. When you discover you have chosen wrong and simply admit you were wrong, the gate opens.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:15pm PT
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Jaybro, did we discuss this and I missed it ? What the heck is decadent creationism ? Sounds like a chocolate and green icecream from Ben and Jerry's. :D
Can't you just say.....there may be a God and he may have created....let the kids think and ask questions.
I mean the big bang etc. isn't taught as absolute with proof....isn't it taught as theory ? They didn't "teach" evolution and big bang etc. in my parochial school, but they certainly mentioned it and gave lynnie something to think about. Hey, most of us kids from say 7th grade on really inspect the theories our parents and the establishment DON'T want us to believe. Right ? At least I always did and I was no real Rebel ...:D
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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Oct 15, 2009 - 02:23pm PT
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I still need to respond to Norton, Cintune and jstan......but gotta get some stuff done.
I am finally hearing and "seeing" the jstan I have heard famous funny stories about from friends in the Climbing Community. What a great sense of humor, Dude. I may call yo Dude, mayent I ? Smiles and Peace, jstan.
Thanks all you Dudettes and Dudes for your kind thoughts.....they mean much to me as I journey through the day. It gives a sense of comfort and peace to know people care.
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