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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:50pm PT
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Just to note how wrongs multiply and create hells in the future. Trace the roots of the Vietnam War, the Israeli Conflict, and First Iraq war and you'll find western colonialism at the root. They were the ones who stole land with zero real justification and then divided it up in unnatural or unjust ways when they left.
The Vietnam war started as a defense of French Colonial rule in French Indo-China. Did Britain really have the authority to promise a (much smaller ) portion of Palestine for a Jewish state?
Solution?
International peacekeepers everywhere and an International conference to set fair borders on both sides, crammed down their throats with the threat of Cuba- like sanctions and blockades (like Israel already uses on the Palestinians)
The Israelis and the Palestinians both have long term goals for themselves that are unjust. Neither side can be trusted to work things out because their agenda always strategizes that down the line they will have an additional advantage.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:52pm PT
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"Karl,
I never said any of that.
Once again.
Stop being stupid.
Skip"
Of course you didn't say that. What are you saying? Tell me how Israel went from 19,000 jews 150 years ago to Jewish state with most the land. It wasn't just that they moved in and bought up all the empty property.
SO I keep asking you to put yourself in their place, but you won't and can't. Imagine yourself having so many immigrants move in that they eventually call themselves a Hispanic state and curtain your rights and take your land. Just try.
Peace
Karl
PS hope this doesn't generate additional immigrant bias here.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 04:06pm PT
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Very good movie. Deplorable propaganda.
Well it is clear and telling that Skipt, like Fattrad and a few others, get thir primary sence of the reality of the world from Hollywood. Reinforced, oh course, by the totally unbiased Fox news source.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 04:52pm PT
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Clearly, neither side has the wherewithal to end this thing. Imagine if there was oil in Gaza. How long do you think this ruckus would be allowed to keep dragging on?
JL
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 05:16pm PT
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" Imagine if there was oil in Gaza."
Imagine if there were terrorists in Gaza who targeted people other than Jews...
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:20pm PT
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Actually there is a natural gas field within Gazan territorial waters conservatively worth several billion dollars. Unfortunately as in most things Israel will not allow it do be developed lest it benefit the Palestinians.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:54pm PT
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"So it comes back to the age old question: What to do. Doing nothing IMO is a defalt position that secures our comfort and lets a bad situation get worse. Force doesn't seem to work, less so debate and negotiation.
What's left? "
You've answered your own question. When doing nothing is not an option and or engaging in debate and negotiation work less well then force, then force is the only viable option. You say "force doesnt' seem to work" but that is not true. Historically, force has worked very well when relentlessly applied, particularly in the Middle East. I believe that you engage in more self-examination, your complaint about force would be not that it doesn't work but because it results in so much death and destruction of the innocents.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 08:57pm PT
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Israel uses White Phosphorus Munitions in defiance of treaty
Israel has claimed that it is taking all precautions to minimize civilian loss of life and casualties. This is bullsh#t.
One example of this is the use of White Phosphorus rounds in a way where the phosphorus does not burn off before it hits the ground. Phosphorus burns more or less on contact with air, and keeps burning until deprived of oxygen. People who suffer phosphorus burns not only have terrible burns, but they absorb the phosphorus through the skin, and suffer acute phosphorus poisoning. This used to be more common than it is, because phosphorus was used in friction matches and in industrial processes, it was sold for rat poison. During World War II, it was dropped on London as part of "the blitz." In the 1940's it was called by one journal article a menace to public health after noting that 50% of the people admitted for phosphorous poisoning died, as compared to 6% of all other non-alcohol poisonings.
So while using phosphorus rounds itself isn't against the relevant treaties, using it in a way that takes advantage of its toxic qualities makes it a chemical weapon, and it is completely inconsistent with any claim to be cautious or worrying about civilian loss of life to use it in a populated area, and allowing it to fall to the ground.
The problem with worrying about treaties here, for example the CWC is that Israel isn't a signatory to them. Instead the problem is that Israel has tried to present this as a humane war, a necessary war, and a limited war, with full concern for civilians. This is nonsense.
Phosphorus burns at 30C in humid air, that is, it spontaneously burns on a warm day, and keeps burning until it runs out of oxygen. Phosphorus burns even as it clings to the body, and even as it enters it. According to global security, up to 15% of the White Phosphorous - actually a slightly yellow waxy like substance - remains and can be reignited by impact or crushing.
When used for creating smoke WP is mixed with other materials, and burns almost completely within moments, this produces a deep white milky fog. When used as an incendiary weapon - that is, to cause burns - it is detonated to produce burning shrapnel that sticks to the skin. It is effective both against materials like oil, and against people. The US denied it's use as an anti-personnel weapon in Iraq, but in 2005 admitted that they had engaged in "shake and bake" operations where white phosphorus rounds were used to drive out insurgents who were then hit with high explosive rounds. This was done during both the invasion in 2003 and in the occupation. Saddam routinely used WP rounds in attacks against civilians.
Phosphorus burns are well known to cause deep and painful 2nd and 3rd degree burns. More over, phosphorus, while in very small amounts is used by the body, in larger doses rapidly causes acute poisoning, with no approved treatment. Phosphorus clings to mucous lined tissues, accumulates in the liver and kidneys, and causes death by organ failure. People vomit and suffer intense headaches and pain. The signature symptom is the "garlicky" smell of the burns, and a similar taste on the victim's mouth.
Half of all deaths occur in the first day because of cardiac arrest, in the majority of other cases death from renal failure or liver failaure comes in 4 to 8 days according to Heikki Nikkanen and Michel Burns Ewald in the most recent edition of Goldfrank's Toxicological Emergencies. One early bad sign is a rise in amniotrasferases enzymes, similar to the appearance of jaundice and other liver diseases.
The LD50 - that is the dose that will on average kill 50% of those exposed to it - is considered to be 1mg per kg of body weight. OSHA sets the acceptable exposure limit to it as .1 mg per m^3.
There is no accepted course of treatment, though JIST reports one case of using N-acetylcysteine.
This means that allowing exposure to WP for civilians, or as unexpended rounds in a conflict, is completely incompatible with any claim to be limiting civilian casualties. WP as a weapon causes burns and poisoning, leaves behind unexpended, but still spontaneously combustible phosphorus, it causes damage both to cells and to organ function. It has, to repeat an important point, no approved course of treatment.
Thus, while Israel isn't breaking any treaties - because it hasn't signed them - it clearly flouts the spirit and intention of conventions to ban the use of poisoning as a tool of war, and in causing excessive civilian casualties.
Israel banked a large moral surplus because of the long history of anti-semitism and genocide against Jews in European and global history. It spent some more of that today, and in more and more eyes, is passing into moral deficit.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 09:02pm PT
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Once again Philo cherry picks his quotes. If he'd included the whole article (that's partialy plegarized) on WP from Pikes site on one of his other incessantly repetitive posts, you would have read this.
Casualties from WP smoke have not occurred in combat operations. At room temperature, white phosphorus is somewhat volatile and may produce a toxic inhalational injury. In moist air, the phosphorus pentoxide produces phosphoric acid. This acid, depending on concentration and duration of exposure, may produce a variety of topically irritative injuries. Irritation of the eyes and irritation of the mucous membranes are the most commonly seen injuries. These complaints remit spontaneously with the soldier's removal from the exposure site. With intense exposures, a very explosive cough may occur, which renders gas mask adjustment difficult. There are no reported deaths resulting from exposure to phosphorus smokes. Generally, treatment of WP smoke irritation is unnecessary. Spontaneous recovery is rapid.
White phosphorus fume can cause severe eye irritation with blepharospasm, photophobia, and lacrimation. Irritation of the eyes and irritation of the mucous membranes are the most commonly seen injuries. These complaints remit spontaneously with the soldier's removal from the exposure site. The WP smoke irritates the eyes and nose in moderate concentrations. With intense exposures, a very explosive cough may occur, which renders gas mask adjustment difficult. There are no reported deaths resulting from exposure to phosphorus smokes.
If the Israelis in Gaza or the Americans in Faluja had intended to cause the massive burn wounds and incindiary effects that WP is capable of, those shells would be bursting at 50-100 ft, not 500 ft up. Note that no massive fires or hordes of burn casualties occured in either case.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 09:13pm PT
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"Tell me how Israel went from 19,000 jews 150 years ago to Jewish state with most the land. It wasn't just that they moved in and bought up all the empty property."
I don't know if your 19,000 figure is accurate, but mostly they moved in and bought up property and not just "empty" property. There was massive immigration by European Jews and coming from Europe they had comparatively a lot of money compared to the indigenous "locals." A lot of the private property within the 1947borders was purchased. The rest was won in wars launched against Israel to try to eradicate them.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:21pm PT
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OK here is a solution; Since Zionist aggression has already killed two million Arabs since 1948 how about we let them keep going till they that hit the sacred number of SIX million. We can keep a telethon like tally board. Let them slaughter and cleanse the land, they believe God gave them, in any way they want. The rest of the world just sits back doing nothing but watching and counting. The minute they reach the hallowed SIX MILLION dead souls then all bets are off. Open season! Their guilt levied debt has been repaid. Now it is time for the world to respond.
You reap what you sow.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:22pm PT
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I'm curious. How many people would support a United States peace keeping force being deployed to Gaza? How many would support a U.S. sponsored Palestinian state with borders drawn up by a ME treaty organization if it meant enforcement by the U.S. military? It KILLS me to listen to uninformed drivel about the use of our military. People who say "I can understand Afghanistan but Iraq is criminal" are far left liberals trying to either slam Bush or make themselves look moderate while complaining about Iraq. Are these same people willing to support a war for the benefit of the Palestinians? So war is o.k. if it's for something YOU support? If we use the projection of power to support one issue then who is the one to say it's wrong to use in another? There are no black and white answers out there. The whole premise of this post is even in error. Everyone in Germany wasn't a Nazi nor was it an Evil Empire. We have so many problems we need to deal with in our own country yet everyone who has family or friends living in a hot zone wants U.S. intervention while, at the same time, condemn the U.S. in their other endeavors. When you're on top it's always a lose, lose situation.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Jbar posted; "Everyone in Germany wasn't a Nazi nor was it an Evil Empire".
Seems some folks don't realize that Everyone in Gaza isn't Hamas nor isGaza an evil empire.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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Philo, if the Israelis had killed as many as you claim they did, there wouldn't be any Hamas because all the Palestinians would be dead.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:35pm PT
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philo that is very true. True of every conflict throughout history. The sad fact of the current situation is that the people who just want to live their simple lives are caught up in all of the politics. There are many situations around the world deserving of as much attention as the Israeli/Pal conflict as well. Problem is they won't make money for the U.N. or the C.N.N.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:37pm PT
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http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+before+2000/Terrorism%20deaths%20in%20Israel%20-%201920-1999
From 1920 through 1999, a total of 2,500 residents of Mandatory Palestine and, since 1948, the State of Israel fell victims to hostile enemy action; in most cases, terrorist attacks.
The last terrorism-related death in 1999 was recorded on August 30, 1999. The first death in 2000 was recorded on September 27, 2000, with the outbreak of the current wave of Palestinian violence and terror.
The following statistics were provided by the National Insurance Institute:
Year Number killed
1920 9
1921 24
1922 5
1923 0
1924 4
1925 1
1926 1
1927 1
1928 0
1929 119
1920s total = 164
1930 0
1931 2
1932 4
1933 0
1934 0
1935 1
1936 44
1937 10
1938 94
1939 26
1930s total = 181
1940 137
1941 14
1942 4
1943 1
1944 3
1945 1
1946 28
1947 152
1948 379
1949 37
1940s total = 756
1950 52
1951 41
1952 40
1953 46
1954 41
1955 30
1956 53
1957 19
1958 15
1959 10
1950s total = 347
Year Number killed
1960 11
1961 8
1962 10
1963 7
1964 9
1965 10
1966 10
1967 16
1968 55
1969 33
1960s total = 169
1970 74
1971 18
1972 46
1973 27
1974 67
1975 39
1976 14
1977 9
1978 57
1979 10
1970s total = 361
1980 16
1981 14
1982 6
1983 21
1984 9
1985 27
1986 14
1987 11
1988 16
1989 40
1980s total = 174
1990 33
1991 21
1992 34
1993 45
1994 65
1995 29
1996 56
1997 41
1998 16
1999 8
1990s total = 348
695 dead Israelis between 1920 and 1990.
Wow thats not even a single 2 week IDF invasions worth.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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Just proves that the fanatical followers of the cult of the child molesting warlord aren't very good at jihad.
Estimates are that about 50 of the dead palestinians right now are fatah supporters that hamas has executed and left in garbage dumps around Gaza, then told the familys where to find them.
Of course Philo will include them in his total body count as well.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:42pm PT
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You're all guilty too. All you drama queens helped cause this nightmare. You all have a hand in it, too.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:49pm PT
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I highly doubt you will see any more US peace keeping forces deployed because this involves massive amounts of money we no longer have. There is no return on investment for other countries to horn in (ask China, Japan, Russia, Germany, et al, how many forces and hard cash they are willing to contribute to a peace keeping operation in Gaza) therefore nothing over there will change.
Someone mentioned that force works if kept on indefinately. Problem is, this policy no longer works unless you want to bankrupt your country trying to "save" another. Reports I've been reading insist that occupations are probably going to end with Iraq owing to the costs. Basically, no one can afford an indefinate occupation any longer. Even Russia, fidling around with piss ant neighbors, is starting to hemorrage dough.
Perhaps another country will step up, but it's not going to be the US any time soon unless the soldiers are willing to work for nothing and live off Top Ramin and KoolAid.
Folks, we're worse than broke. This talk about US peace keeping forces is like a pauper shopping for a condo.
JL
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:52pm PT
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Granite climber posted; "Philo, if the Israelis had killed as many as you claim they did, there wouldn't be any Hamas because all the Palestinians would be dead".
What an ignorant statement GC you obviously have no idea how many Palestinians there are in the world. Between those still trapped or valiantly defending THEIR homeland and the wide spread Diaspora Palestinians there are quite a few more than you seem to realize. One of the greatest concerns facing Israel is the shifting demographics of population increase. The fear loosing a Jewish majority as a way of justifying have a nonconstitutional theocracy.
So Jbar given what you just posted can you not see the inherent hypocrisy in the US continuing unquestioning support of all policies Israeli? Do you not see the obvious dilema in the one sided US financial support of Israel? Billions of dollars without restrictions compared to millions of heavily restricted dollars.
Do you not see the ethical morass of all the American made and supplied weapons used on mostly trapped and defenseless people?
If nothing else it is time for average Americans to find out what's really been going on for the last sixty years. Wake up and tell your representatives to pull AIPAC's foot out of their ass and stand up for what is JUST in the world!
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