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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Weird post Sluggo and what a sad place in your life you must be to call someone a cheater because they don't adhere to some style of climbing that you hold so dearly.
I would never judge a human being by the style of the routes he does or doesn't do.
Much rather base it on personal experiences..then again...I consider myself to have evolve...maybe it will happen for you in the future.
Nice post Dingus...the earth will finish it's journey...with or without us and bolts on wall mean nothing if you understand that.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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"Hardly even any hook placements to drill from."
So there are in fact hook placements you could have drilled from?
Bob, has it occured to you that starting at the top and working your way down really is cheating?
Incidentally, I laughed out loud at Sluggo's reference to "First Descent".
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Yeah, I wanted to tell DMT well done too.
Now, Buggs, damnit, get away from that computer and go for a run! BWahahhaaa
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Sean Jones
climber
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Every so often I read a bit more on this topic. I keep seeing Doug's name come up. I've even seen it called Doug's route. I can't make this more clear.
I made every major call up there. Anyone who feels any way about anything should address me. I've done alot of new routes and used alot of different tactics in doing so. ALWAYS putting the finished product in mind above all other things.
I have a web site seanjonesclimbing.com all my contact info is there. Please feel free to contact me at any time.
Speaking of doing routes in many styles, Something that noone knows about is another route I did during my time up there.
Ben Montoya was the partner that helped me do all the crack pitches on the first 1/2. On lead,on "Growing Up". He then ran out of time and had to go to work. I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1.
One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp.
Right as we started down, a huge rock fall cut loose from Cloud's Rest and exploded down into Tenaya canyon. We jumped up and down with excitement then continued down. A perfect day in the mountains.
I very much know what rad trad st#t is all about. And very much love that style of climbing. I've done huge runouts on first ascents in the past only to go back and retro my own routes so people would actually climb them in the future.
More than anything, that's what I want people doing on the routes I leave behind. CLIMBING them. Having fun and making it back home in one happy piece.
"Growing Up" is by far the best route I've climbed in my life. A lot of love and labor went into this project. Not to mention money and huge tax on my family. As I said before and as always, the FINISHED PRODUCT is what I take pride in most. Always will be.
When I was a teenager, a total reckless punk. Heading for jail, overdose, or death fast, Something amazing came into my life. Cimbing. It saved me, motivated me to be healthier, stronger, and taught me.
I love everthing about climbing. Every type of climbing. Not so long ago, I was at a competition(watching). The kids there were so stoked. The parents behind the kids in total support. Total support by everyone for everyone. Energy so good, you could almost see it in the air.
The bottom line is that climbing is like a big wave that's been building up for a long time. That wave is cresting now. There's huge potential in the possitive sides of climbing that can ultimately benefit our world. And surely will.
There's also sickness that comes through climbing that effects people like no other sport I've ever seen. Peoples heads turn into balloons so big that you could imagine them floating away.
I've had this happen to myself many times over. It's a constant struggle to overcome ego and try to get yourself back on track. Always will be.
Surely the more possitive sides of climbing will shine above the rest as we ride this wave.
There really is enough space out there for all of us to do things in different ways.
Take music for example, Imagine if everyone was stuck to some rule that said they all had to play everything the same. How boring would that be ?
I could write forever here but it costs me to spend the time. I'll do more as time allows. Be well everyone ! And remember to HAVE FUN !!!!
Sean.
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Cracko
Trad climber
Quartz Hill, California
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Doug,
Some will listen, some will even understand. Others won't. In the end, you answer to yourself. I think you have, and I think you do ! Again.....good by me!
Cracko
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Sean Jones
climber
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I'll get a topo out as soon as possible. I'll try and get out some topos of the many other routes waiting to be climbed as well. I've done 91 new routes in the valley alone and hundreds more around the sierras.
The guide book's way behind so I'll try and get the most important ones out as soon as possible.
Peace,
Sean.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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the interesting thing about the whole climb is this. i firmly believe in equal opportunity climbing. if a wall is ground up let it stay that way. keeps folks honest. if a wall succumbs to the drill from above, then it is open to all who may ant to approach things that way. the end result is not always the best for the cliff. knowing this then growing up has now opened up the SFHD for the rapp and drill climbs. they will be fun, well protected,and open the palce up for the masses.
whether everyone agrees or not does not matter. if this climb stays there then like styled routes should also be allowed.
which brings another thig up. for all the nice folks being polite in their disagreement here, it speaks volumes about the WoS debacle. you see i dont think it was a debacle, only on these and the rag pages by a select few. but if WoS was a debacle then this route should be lower than that. goes to show what i thought all along, it is not the route or style that matters, but who did it.
that is the saddest thing of all.
i dont really care one way or the other, the traditional way has been dead for years, but routes like this on such a wall as this kills it even more.....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pete....that would be a no and when you have done as many hard free routes ground up that I have without cheating (unlike you) come back and talk.
Until then...go spend 30 days on a route on El Cap pounding in pins and thinking to yourself you are not cheating.
You ever heard of the word hypocrite???
Nice post Sean and great job on the route. You seem to have level head and really love the sport of climbing. Keep cranking and take care of that wonderful family of your.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, Oregon
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Sean, Three things, please:
1. As we write the history books, who do you feel should be listed as the FA party for this route? It seems you are minimizing Doug's contribution.
2. There have been a few calls for a topo; can you supply one? Will you?
3. Pet peeve... don't jump up my ass on this, but "alot" is not a word. The phrase you want is two words, "a lot." Much like "alittle" is not a word. Okay, I'll jump off the soapbox and let someone else have a go.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Bob, although I no longer free climb, I have put up hundreds of first ascents and first free ascents round here, all of them ground up, and not one single bolt. Some of them do not get repeated much because they are hard and scary and poorly protected. I could give a rat's ass if they are "safe". I sure as hell couldn't repeat most of them any more - too hard for me, man.
Yeah, pounding pins is cheating to a degree, for sure. But at least I start at the bottom and climb up. I would have no objections were this how Doug and Sean had climbed their route. If others can run it out, and drill bolts on lead from scary hooks, why not them? Rap bolting a big wall seems obscene to me.
"I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1. One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp."
Now that's proud! Why didn't we read about that in the mags?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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PTPP wrote
"So there are in fact hook placements you could have drilled from?
Bob, has it occured to you that starting at the top and working your way down really is cheating? "
Seems to me that you're the last guy who should be calling any kettle black Pete.
Personally, I think soloing big walls would be less stress if you repeat a route by bringing 400 pounds of stuff and wake up at noon and climb one pitch a day slow enough to make sure of every inch. I think it's fine, to each his own, but style is style. You're both hammering on the rock or your name would be PassTheCamHooksPete.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sean wrote
"Ben Montoya was the partner that helped me do all the crack pitches on the first 1/2. On lead,on "Growing Up". He then ran out of time and had to go to work. I didn't want him to leave unsatisfied so we ran over to the right side of the wall on his last climbing day and did another route. "Laid to Rest" 5.11c A1.
One unavoidable move of A1 at the bottom, Then climbed an 8 pitch new line to the summit. On sight, on lead, and no bolts for protection. Every picth wide and way physical. No falls. We hit the summit right at sunset, watched the sky explode with color, High five and head for camp. "
and
" I'll try and get out some topos of the many other routes waiting to be climbed as well. I've done 91 new routes in the valley alone and hundreds more around the sierras. "
I hope this quells fears that Sean is on an ego trip to get his name on as many routes as possible. Doesn't seems like he goes out of his way to toot his horn. "Gates of Delirium" looks classic but was kept pretty secret for awhile.
Thanks for letting some cats out of the bag.
Peace
Karl
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GDavis
Trad climber
SoCal
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Man, Sean and Doug are arrogant. And Mean!
;D
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Pete...you have a right to your opinions and that really all they are. There is no wrong or right just routes that are left to climb and evaluate based on our personal likes and dislikes.
I am no were near as one dimensional as you and continue to free climb hard routes ground up and on rappel.
By your own admission ground up is not best and doesn't leave a route that is respected or even climbed by the climbing community.
When Scott did Southern Belle he deviated from the norm or what was accepted just ten years before. Styles will continue to change and evolve...sad that some climbers can't.
Pete wrote: Bob, although I no longer free climb, I have put up hundreds of first ascents and first free ascents round here, all of them ground up, and not one single bolt. Some of them do not get repeated much because they are hard and scary and poorly protected. I could give a rat's ass if they are "safe". I sure as hell couldn't repeat most of them any more - too hard for me, man.
So what is your point... your routes are crap? Should be apparent since no one makes the effort to repeat.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Coz wrote: You guys can go another 800 post but the bottom line remains, did you do it ground up or on rap. Simple.
You know the answer and when did you make the rules???
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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as someone who has done routes solo, gu, at respectable levels of difficulty i concur with coz.
stop f*#king pretending about the style.
and karl, while i appreciate your peace, your agenda of having more moderate protectable routes in yosmeite is duly noted but go do it yourself in your own way.
thanks coz.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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so bob,
you think all cliffs should be open to Rapp and Drill?
one simple answer for climbers of all ilk, one huge question for them to chew on.......
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think one issue this route has is difficult to classify. Is it "really" a big wall? Seems to be cause the South Face is nearby, but will anyone ever spend the night on the thing?
For aid climbers, "Equiping" a route is pure anathema. Easy to understand why. Aid is its own form of cheating and it needs some kind of rules or community ethic to keep it from being an engineering exercise only dependent on good weather and supplies of food, water and the ever important "Misc."
Freeclimbing is another animal and there is a wide range of styles practiced nowadays. Terrain, intent, and difficultly has dictated style on many ascents.
The guys who put up Dakshina (another proud bold route) on North Dome, arguably a similar kind of route to the SFHD have their dignity but tell me they regret not putting up a route that anybody wants to repeat.
The upper face is 10c. Well within the ability of Sean and others to go fire. You can accuse them of sacrificing the ground up ethic for the sake of making sure they were establishing the best line and a line people would like to climb, but I really don't think this is a matter of cowardice.
Wonder how many of the death route climbers, now that they may be wiser or have "something to lose" would repeat their own routes even if they were still in shape for them.
This thread will break 1000 for sure cause somebody will go climb the route soon and we'll have more to chew on.
Peace
karl
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