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sempervirens
climber
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This is a shot I took for Telemark ski magazine of Isa and her daughter Nina. Isa is in the back. you guys can diss her low style all you want but I would bet $$$ that none of you could match her turn for turn free skiing and you would definitely get smoked in gates ;)
Both skiers in your photo still have their feet under themselves rather than spread apart to front and back. I'm sure Isa can out tele ski me. And there are many times when I fail to achieve the technique that I described above. But what if a great skier can improve their technique and become even better. That would be more cool than beating me in the bumps or gates.
Stand in a lunge position with feet spread wide, front foot far forward, back foot far behind you. Then jump up and change feet in the air. Now imagine doing that with the extra weight of skis on feet and having to turn the tips from pointing to the right of fall line to the left of fall line. Then try it with your knees and feet closer together and your body position higher as has been described above. Which way gives you more power to rise up, turn the skis, and absorb the shock of the next landing?
Snowing heavy here (a lil' way's north of Truckee) but I was too lazy to leave the house at 6:00 am to avoid the Tahoe traffic snarl so just going for a local skip n' stride. And, yeah, still got time on my hands for this chit chat, avoiding my tax return.
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allapah
climber
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Nancy Pfeiffer's 4-point tele formula:
1.) 50% of weight on lead ski, 50% on back ski
2.) Weight on lead ski is evenly distributed on all points of sole of foot
3.) Lead ski and trail ski should be separated by no more than the length of a person's shoulders
4.) Center of gravity always travels up and down parallel to gravity
Looking at number 2, one can see that the heel on the trail ski is going to have to be raised to achieve evenly distributed weight on lead ski. The hard part is to keep 50% of weight on the trail ski. One must push down through the heel of the lead ski while sticking to the formula throughout the turn. It was hard to learn how to stick to #3-- I would always get the skis too far apart.
Nancy gave me this many many years ago and it has served me in good stead, especially when I find myself tellying on those gd super skinny sticks.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Sounds good, Allapah. I just have one question: as you probably know, gravity acts on a skier's CM in two directions, one parallel to the slope and the other toward the center of the earth. To which direction does #4 refer? I advocate moving the CM perpendicular to the slope, somewhere between the two vectors of gravity.
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allapah
climber
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Center of earth gravity
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Allapah, please see my edited post above. Movement of the CM affects pressure control, but more importantly it initiates edge change, which is essential for a turn to happen. If the CM moves as you suggest, it doesn't change the edge angle. Balance in skiing is dynamic, rather than static. this means that the CM moves outside of the base of support. Every turn involves deliberately losing balance, by moving or falling toward the upcoming turn, before finding that balance again once the edge change has occurred. This is true for all types of skiing on any equipment, even snowboarding. The only exception is in wedge turns, where the base of support is pretty wide and the speed is slow.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Here are a few.
https://www.youtube.com/user/skiwithurmas
The one about carving clearly shows the CM moving outside the base of support, toward the inside of the turn. This is a good example of dynamic balance. You will notice that the CM moves almost parallel to the slope. In steeper terrain it moves in a path closer to the line to the center of the earth.
Sadly I lost most of the footage that was filmed by TelemarkTips moderator, Mitch Weber (RIP). He and I had a falling out over business, and he never shared many of the videos, which he agreed were mine to keep. Now they are lost forever, I'm sure.
Fortunately I took up filming with West Vane, a local filmmaker. He and I produced an instructional DVD, which is available from
https://www.skiwithurmas.com.
The trailer is included in the youtube sampling.
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Yes, center of mass. It is located in the center of the body in the hip region. You can watch that part of the body move from the inside of one turn to the inside of the next. This is called a crossover move. The CM crosses over the skis from one turn to the next. If it were to move parallel to the pull of gravity toward the earth, there would be no crossover. This move is much more pronounced in a medium to long radius turn, such as demonstrated in my carving video, but is present in shorter turns as well. It is also possible for the feet (and skis) to cross under the CM, but the CM still moves toward the new turn relative to the feet, not straight up.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I think you should give Lyn Hill some pointers on rock climbing while you are at it ;)
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sempervirens
climber
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trad, whattaya think about the experiment I described though? It makes sense, doesn't it?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I don't think about skiing. I just do it....
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 19, 2017 - 08:58pm PT
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 19, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
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He cares.
Shreddy
He called me Shreddy
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Mar 19, 2017 - 11:25pm PT
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I've been skiing tele for almost 30 years. The best tele lessons that I ever received - that pushed me out of the old-fashioned tele technique - were from a tele instructor at Santa Fe in the early 1990s.
The two most important things that I learned from her were (a) proper stance (Holding your CM in the right place), and (b) fast lead changes.
A great drill to find the proper stance is to do a fore-and-aft shuffle with both feet while turning left and right. You can't keep the shuffle going through the turn unless your pelvis is properly positioned forward enough. Once you find it, this is where your pelvis should stay while skiing.
The other thing I hate is when I see tele skiers holding their stance in between turns. This makes the characteristic big S turns across the fall line. You should never hold a static stance, unless you are steady on a traverse or something like that.
Alpine skiers don't hold a stance unless they're beginners doing wedge turns. Alpine skiers make rapid fire turns, and they make narrow snake-like tracks right down the fall line.
Tele skiers can make rapid fire turns, too - if you know how to change leads quickly.
At the end of a right turn, you are on the right (uphill) edge of both skis with the left ski forward. At this point - with your pelvis in proper position - roll both skis onto the left (downhill) edges to start carving on those edges, simultaneously move your CM down into the fall line, and then pull the left ski back (as opposed to moving the right ski forward). This is a super fast lead change, and you can make rapid-fire left and right turns like an alpine skier in the bumps.
A great drill for learning to roll onto your downhill edges is to keep one leg forward at all times (e.g. Right foot forward) and make left and right turns in that fixed stance. Like Urnas said, this involves rolling out of balance dynamically while you're rolling into the next turn. Urmas calls this the mono tele turn.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Mar 20, 2017 - 08:06am PT
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^^Good words and perfectly strung out there Rat; good INFO for all.
A great drill to find the proper stance is to do a fore-and-aft shuffle with both feet while turning left and right. You can't keep the shuffle going through the turn unless your pelvis is properly positioned forward enough. Once you find it, this is where your pelvis should stay while skiing.
I never thought of it like that or considered doing it drill-style. I've worked on reverse tele turns for fun when bored but damn, I gotta go try that!!
I hear ya on the 'stance' when not turning, kinda akin to hanging from muscles instead of your skeleton between moves whilst resting. I've always had to work on flexibility to keep from popping up too much during the lead changes. I'll pop up at times, even when pulling back. A lot of those 'pops' are just for fun, I have to admit. If it ain't fun then why?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Mar 20, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
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Was out the last couple of days in new to me areas. Herman Gulch and Ruby Gulch
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Mar 21, 2017 - 03:03am PT
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very cool. jack is looking grown up!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Mar 22, 2017 - 02:27pm PT
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Nobody cares what binding you're on when your just going to die in the alders anyways.....
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Mar 25, 2017 - 07:41pm PT
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Sierra Ledge Rat, You have a good understanding of skiing, and communicate it well.
F, did you go there by choice?!?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Mar 25, 2017 - 09:29pm PT
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No, not really. We climbed the west face of Mtn X, skied the south side to access the NW side of Mtn Y. By the time we got done with the second descent ( deep trail breaking for 2500 ) the south face of Mtn X (our planned exit) was popping off 12" slabs all over from the sun effect. That left us with waiting for hours for Mtn X to cool off, or thrash and 4x4 down the drainage of Mtn Y. It wasn't the worst alder skiing I've ever done, but we certainly hadn't planned on going out that way, and it wasn't something I'd like to repeat real soon.
Long spring days are awesome. It's nice to be getting some long runs in.
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