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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 03:18pm PT
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I interpreted Kevin's statement to mean that we set "trad" as placing the most voluntary restraints. I like that a lot. Specifically as it regards not throwing semipermanent/permanent junk into the rock that changes its natural state. Letting the natural terrain impose its requirements/challenges upon me, and all of that ensuing on-site first try creative process of adjusting to the terrain: this is what I really like about Trad. It's flat-out nourishing. For me.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 16, 2013 - 03:47pm PT
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I find it nourishing and demanding. It is like playing it where it lays in golf, and calling a penalty on yourself if you can't deal.
Another Trad Precept:
"Harden the f*ck up!"
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 04:30pm PT
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Anyhow, this thread has likely reached its apogee, because we've come full circle to where we were much earlier on, into characterizing whether climbers are now performing under the definition of Trad or not. Sure they are; mostly in a recreational capacity. Honnold is because he is free soloing, so he's current cutting-edge Trad to say the least. Most the other stuff we see at the cutting-edge, exemplified by the free climbing on big walls, the activities now being conducted at the cutting-edge with a rope and rack, requires a serious look at the need to bend the rules. That's postmodern Trad if you like. And again, for my part there's no value judgment being made about it, tons of very impressive things are happening in free climbing these days.
Again, I'm also pretty sure a European guy just last year on-site free climbed something in The Black Canyon; was it The Hallucinogen? I think people have been referring to The Black Canyon as a place to go adventure climbing for some time now. Essentially Trad. So it's out there; the question is how much of it is happening and what do you do with the rest of it in terms of definition. That's not for me to decide.
Thanks everyone! This has been an awesome discussion and it has furnished lots of good laughs all around, the latter having been a big piece of my mission statement. Just look at the OP and that silly list we put together in the second post to confirm the original plan I had laid out for us: namely to have fun with it all; just like we do when we climb Trad.
Cheers,
Roy
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Apr 16, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
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It makes my nipples hurt to think this is over. How bout one more pic? Have I put any others up yet? This is at the 'false' summit of Mt Borah, Idaho, having some Gatorade before there was such a thing.
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WyoRockMan
climber
Climber: Flank of the Bighorns
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Apr 16, 2013 - 04:56pm PT
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Well done Tarbuster, well done!
After spending the last week chewing on this (ruminating as you will), I have decided to remove the prefix of trad from my profile. I've done some actual trad, but mostly have just climbed (using various forms of protection carried along and then removed as a personal preference). What I have always thought of as trad, was actually a watered down, sanitized and still fun wanna be.
And I'm fine with that. But I do aspire to be trad.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 16, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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I still get emotional when I see that Nat Geo cover cause but for the grace
of something I coulda been a contender! We were months ahead of them and
only used a couple of pins that I recall. Sheesh, if we'd known we coulda
been somebodies! But I still think we had them on form and style points.
Maybe me not so much but how many others can say they climbed the RNWF of
Half Dome avec Le Comte d'Artagnan? If you look closely you can just see his épée.
He had to take his feather hat off for this pitch.
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Norwegian
Trad climber
the tip of god's middle finger
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Apr 16, 2013 - 05:10pm PT
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this thread has bolts all over it!
it has totally become a sport-thread.
it was trad for like 40 hits,
now it's just grid-posts.
tis the tendency of a bored lot.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Apr 16, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
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Ya should a written a story about it Reilly - writing is what separates the men from the boys!
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 16, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
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Tarnesss,
If I am reading this right, to call oneself a Trad, one must adventure climb climbs that to your knowledge haven't been done before. Ground up, no beta, no set anchors, knowledge of how to walk-off etc.
This definition eliminates everyone since, including the like of Honnold as a 'recreational climber'. And it also eliminates entire areas like Indian Creek and Vedauwoo once thought to be bastions of Trad before this definative thread came along.
So, an analogy would be to have the desire to only have sex with virgins. There aren't many left in your school, just like there aren't many virgin rock lines left and all the older upper classsmen have already had their way. One is then left hoping to pretend that the doe-y eyed princess is telling you the truth that she is a virgin.
Then you can get on supertopo and be like:
'yo, I tradded that virgin line like an original Rockmaster!'
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Apr 16, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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We all know trad is more than that. We can all go out every day and start from the ground up and make our own histories. History is bunk.....just to beat up on Henry a little....Henry Ford that is.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 05:36pm PT
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Patrick interpreted:
If I am reading this right, to call oneself a Trad, one must adventure climb climbs that to your knowledge haven't been done before. Ground up, no beta, no set anchors, knowledge of how to walk-off etc.
Way, way too strict. Not sure where you got that. Understandably, it's been a long thread! Those two areas which you mentioned and many more provide the opportunity to climb Trad. The definition you just reflected to us would have made Trad a dead thing long ago. It's nice when what you described can be found, to be sure. It's a continuum of style really, with some fuzzy bookends to it. Just go back to my OP for a very simple thumbnail sketch.
Start from the bottom, carry gear on a sling, protect as you go, top out, pound chest and yell like Tarzan.
Fall on the way up? Lower down, pull rope, try again. Three strikes and your out. At the worst, yoyo.
Dig?
All the rest, about walking off the back and everything, is just a way of describing examples of the complete experience at its best.
Thanks Patrick.
I like what McHale's Navy just said.
We all know trad is more than that. We can all go out every day and start from the ground up and make our own histories.
And I'd happily qualify by saying we don't need virgin territory to make personal histories.
[edit] whoops, if you read that I was characterizing Alex Honnold as a mere recreational climber, then I was writing very poorly.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 05:44pm PT
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That's the spirit Ed!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Apr 16, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
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In climbing ethics and rulze are completly situational. If you don't believe me you haven't climbed anything hard enough and scary enough recently.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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WyoRockMan decided:
After spending the last week chewing on this (ruminating as you will), I have decided to remove the prefix of trad from my profile. You'll notice I don't have a trad prefix either! Not because I think I'm not worthy, but because there's no actual reason for me to flaunt it. Guidebooks, fixed anchors here and there, it's not like these things are deal breakers. There's always a rich oral narrative in any community providing information on routes. Again, it's a continuum.
Happy Climbing Wyoming Rock Man!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Apr 16, 2013 - 06:11pm PT
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Take any pics?
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2013 - 06:14pm PT
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This thread has become a club.
Clubs aren't TRAD
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 08:14pm PT
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Very funny!
I totally see where you get that.
A lot of academic noodling over definitions, an attempt to relate that to current activities, and a list of names of those who influenced free climbing long ago.
Climb on!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 08:21pm PT
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Nice Kevin,
I see all of that.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 16, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
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Yup.
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Apr 16, 2013 - 08:46pm PT
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One of things that stands out in my mind when using the TRAD term:
Disappearing on the side of BIG cliff making our way to the top
And the views!
And more solitude
Passing the point of "now it's easier to press on to the top then rap"
I guess it's still that one word: ADVENTURE
EDIT: I was going to list one thing... Then I kept thinking and listing.... Thats sorta TRAD too ;)
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