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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:00pm PT
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So, although I think the income inequality is too great, the only way to change it is to get the end users to stop using the product.
The primary problem involves a bought and paid for political system.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:02pm PT
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Too late...
I'm already there....
Bwahahaa
You are starting today? I've been on the "eliminating the end user money" for the last many years....
You have some catching up to do
next?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:08pm PT
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Fatty is just trying to frame the problem so that he can blame the little guy who in reality can't be the cause of the problem because he has no power because our politicians don't really serve the little guy.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:09pm PT
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Does that mean that parents who stay at home to raise kids are worth nothing? Market pays them nothing.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:18pm PT
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Plenty wrong with the big guys, plenty wrong with the little guys as well.
And yet you frame the answer so that it appears the little guy is to blame. If only we wouldn't support those large corporations. Yet how can we not if they are the only ones we can buy from.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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Eliminate the estate tax
Yep, protect those estates so that money can be past on so that we can continue to protect the power elite. Lets continue to create a landed gentry.
A graduated estate tax is what we should have.
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Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
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Still, stay at home people get paid nothing. According to the theory you noted, that means the market deems them worth nothing.
And children. They are worth nothing.
And the unemployed. They are worth nothing.
And the retired - worth nada.
And the seriously infirm - zippo.
Maybe the theory needs a bit of work?
edit: just occurred to me that during the last part of his life, Jobs was worth nothing (according to this theory).
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:25pm PT
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Crimpie
Right again.
cute movie stars, high school dropout ball players, gansta rap singers Sure they make lots of money. Much more than some of us would think they're worth. But in the end, they are employees, getting paid as much as they can in a free market. One might argue that entertainers have moral obligations that "gangsta rap singers" don't meet. Or not. But they are all Employees. When they don't perform, they don't make as much money.
I'm in favor of the same "get paid what you're bloody well worth" mechanism for CEOs. Yet how do you determine their worth? Plenty of them were paid huge bonuses while the US and world economies were collapsing.
Take just BofA for example:
On August 3, 2009, Bank of America agreed to pay a $33 million fine, without admission or denial of charges, to the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) over the non-disclosure of an agreement to pay up to $5.8 billion of bonuses at Merrill. The bank approved the bonuses before the merger but did not disclose them to its shareholders when the shareholders were considering approving the Merrill acquisition, in December 2008. $5.8 Billion (with a B) bonuses to the brilliant minds who ran Merrill Lynch into bankruptcy.
BofA
In 2010, the bank was accused by the US federal government of defrauding schools, hospitals, and dozens of state and local government organizations via misconduct and illegal activities involving the investment of proceeds from municipal bond sales. As a result, the bank agreed to pay $137.7 million, including $25 million to the Internal Revenue service and $4.5 million to state attorneys general, to the affected organizations to settle the allegations.
BofA
During 2011, Bank of America began conducting personnel reductions of an estimated 36,000 people, contributing to intended savings of $5 billion per year by 2014.
Bank of America received $20 billion in the federal bailout from the U.S. government through the Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) on January 16, 2009, and also got a guarantee of $118 billion in potential losses at the company.[75] This was in addition to the $25 billion given to them in the Fall of 2008 through TARP. The additional payment was part of a deal with the US government to preserve Bank of America's merger with the troubled investment firm Merrill Lynch.
During Ken Lewis' tenure as CEO and Chairman of the Board of BofA his earnings were:
In October, 2009, at the suggestion of Kenneth Feinberg, the U.S. Treasury's special master for compensation, Lewis decided to forgo salary or bonus in 2009. His 2008 salary was about $1.5 million. "He has taken home $148.8 million from cash and stock sales since taking over the bank in 2001, according to Equilar, a compensation research firm. He is also leaving with more than $135 million in retirement benefits, including the pension and $10 million in life insurance benefits, according to an analysis of corporate filings by James F. Reda & Associates, an independent consulting firm." That's about $2 from every working person in America, over a period of 8 years. Paid to one man. Who didn't even do much good for his own company.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Lewis_(executive)
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 16, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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Unlike fatty's republican friends....
"parents that stay at home allow the other parent to spend more time producing income."
The little people at the bottom cannot just materialize income out of thin air.... like the fat cat bankers can....
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 16, 2011 - 08:05pm PT
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Jeff, bullsh#t
Name the significant legislation to regulate the financial industry passed by the Repubs
Name the legislation passed by the Repubs that directly benefits consumers.
then,, when you are done saying nothing, apologize to everyone here for being full of shit
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
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fattrad
don't forget to ask McCarthy to support you for Emperor of Yosemite.
1031 tax deferred exchanges.
Even though I'm reasonably well informed financially, I had to look it up.
the exchange of certain types of property may defer the recognition of capital gains or losses due upon sale, and hence defer any capital gains taxes otherwise due...the properties exchanged must be held for productive use in a trade or business or for investment. WOW. And you say it will be "revenue neutral". So you're going to remove a tax break (I won't call it a "loophole") to corporations, real estate developers, real estate investors (even Mom and Pop).
So if you "exchange" a certain type of investment or "productive use" property, you would have to pay capital gains tax when you get the profit, instead of later.
Tell me, if it's revenue neutral, how it helps anyone.
Capital gains tax of 10%????
So money I make by the sweat of my brow is taxed at say: 33% plus social security, medicare, unemployment compensation, etc.
Yet if I sit in my chair, buy and sell capital items like airplanes, ships, business parks, I only have to pay 10%??
You really don't get it do you?
Maybe I don't get it. Instead of developing technologies to make our vanishing manufacturing sector more capable and efficient, I should take up investment banking. Got an internship I can apply for?
I'm not going into the whole estate tax argument because it's really all about greedy socialists and those poor wealthy who can't pass all their stuff onto their kids.
For deaths occurring in 2010, up to $5,000,000 can be passed from an individual upon his or her death without incurring estate tax $10Million for couples.
Over $5Million (or 10), the max tax rate is currently 35%. Already down from 55% in 2001. Oh the poor little rich boys and girls. They might have to go out and get their next $million the Merrill Lynch way "we earn it".
And a lower estate tax rate reduces the incentive for people to donate to charitable causes.
Besides, the estate tax is an employment guarantee for tax accountants and lawyers. Eliminate the estate tax and you'll be putting thousands more people OUT of work.
WHOOPS, I got into the Estate Tax argument.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
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Jeff: again we are largely in agreement.
Of course the owners of BofA who are losing money include plenty of 95% 'ers, losing money on their direct investments or through their 401ks or mutual funds or IRAs as BofA stock tanks. AND BofA starts charging them $5 per month to use their debit cards.
Is it a wonder people are pissed?
Back to the Estate Tax for a moment. The estate tax rate has almost zero affect on the US Treasury.
Estate Tax revenue as % of total tax revenue for 2010: 0.9% 2000 (Clinton) 1.3%
Business income tax 2010: 9.6% 2000: 10.8%
Personal income tax 2010: 43.4% 2000: 51.5%
Employment taxes: Social security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, etc 2010: 43.7% 2000: 33.3%
Excise taxes 2010: 2.4% 2000: 2.8%
You too can download the IRS tax statistics as a spreadsheet from:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=171960,00.html
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 16, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
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HighTraverse
Asking fatty to do any background on any factual anything.... may be fruitless......
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Oct 16, 2011 - 08:47pm PT
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Jingy
I'm betting fattrad has all the facts and ins and outs of derivatives, estate tax planning, short selling and junk bonds wired.
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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Oct 16, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
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you give him a lot of credit....
I wonder if that will have any sway with him??
I trust that man very little (my own opinion) and as far as smarts... he's the same as another colorful character here on the topo....
Just as ignorant, just as reactionary, just as... well.... blue
Think about it....
The guy comes onto a "Climbers forum" to talk about his personal backing for a prepublican right wing panzy....
I'm all for freedom of speech... I'm all for the right to choose... and I'm all for personal liberties....
His choices say a lot about his character
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Oct 16, 2011 - 09:52pm PT
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The tea partiers said.. Listen to us, or we will come back with guns.
It is just frustration. There is the potential for violence in every area of society when frustration reaches a high enough level. Including religion.
So the key is to figure out what the frustration is about, rather then focusing on the negativity of the potential for violence. If you do that, then you negate any way to avoid the violence.
The tea partiers had legitimate beefs, even though some of their membership promoted violence.
The same is possibly true of the OWS movement. Though their concerns aren't necessarily coherent yet, nor understood.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
where the wind always blows
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Oct 16, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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Short/simple Question -
If I make money and die, why can't I give it to my kids or grandkids? I earned it. Why can't I keep it or give it to my family?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Oct 16, 2011 - 09:59pm PT
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The only violence that ever happened at a Tea Party rally was when some of your fellow union goons severely beat a black man Moosie.
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