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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Aug 31, 2013 - 10:43pm PT
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Base you have offered up the same mesozoic hothouse event at least three times now. How, without being present before and during the event with the proper modern equipment, can you say that the CO2 increase preceded the warmth. Despite what the Oklahoma state university library geological textbooks say there are a lot of highly respected geologists that say the warmth preceded and caused the elevated CO2 levels. Now about the 0.8 watts per meter from the Earths core that is released globally, what happens to it, what effects does it have, and why are the ocean deeps universally 3-4 degrees centigrade all over the globe? If this constant radiation from the Earth's interior doesn't heat up the oceans depths how can atmospheric radiation sink and build up in the ocean depths? Trenberth's missing heat seems out of place under the rocks at minus thousands of feet below sea level.
Another question for you Base. Is all what we broadly classify as natural gas biogenic or is the thinking coming a bit back ( at least with gas) to the abiogenic theory that the Russians were the last to abandon?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Ahhh, The Chief...
I will never forget you trashing Doug Robinson over the route "Growing Up" on the S Face of HD. You were on a biblical rant.
Doug is a good friend of mine, and I will never forget the crap you were saying about him. A less pleasant person I have never read.
Don't you have a problem with college graduates as well? My old man used that good old GI Bill to go to college on and became a professor. I quess if you know algebra then you are a Marxist.
As for the Mesozoic event, it is the one with the most evidence remaining. As Pangea broke apart, there were several huge episodes of vulcanism, mainly due to the rifting, and examination of leaf fossils suggest, very strongly, that CO2 levels were from 4 to 8 times the amount of pre industrial revolution levels. There isn't even much debate in the industry about this. Yes, we have indeed seen a CO2 forced greenhouse event in the planet's past.
There was a period of global anoxic oceans that led to the carbon rich rocks which sourced the middle east oil fields. That was considered a local event, but recently it has been correlated to rocks on the other side of the world, and current thinking is that it was a global anoxic event caused by ocean acidification. Not a local one. You must realize that through history, the surface looked much different than today, due to wandering continents. All of that has been pretty well pieced together by now. I refer you to the work of Blakey for snapshots through time.
It's all there. Just do some reading. Start out by just reading the Wiki pages of the Permian through Cretaceous. I'm not going to try to pull an Ed and actually teach you anything. Teach yourselves.
Sedimentary rocks are of huge economic importance because of the fossil fuels that they contain. Zillions of research dollars have been spent by oil companies and universities. If there is any little thing concerning the rock record and the history of the Earth since the Cambrian, then it has been studied and is still being studied.
Correct me if I'm wrong, TC, but did you once post over on the religion thread and say that the Earth was young? Even though we see starlight from galaxies billions of light years away, which suggests that the universe is as least as old as that light has traveled, you apparently thought that God turned the lights on all at once? It has been a long time since I read that, but I think it was you. If not, apologies.
I'm a "neo-Marxist"? WTF is that? Have you ever created any wealth? One f*#king dime?
Have you ever created wealth? Any wealth? Have you put guys to work? Just from an idea or a little initiative? Who writes your paychecks? The Treasury? I WRITE checks to the treasury.
I always think it is pretty cool when a prospect of mine gets drilled. All of these people are involved, and everyone is making a living. Sure, I just do science, but people feed their kids off of it. Even if it is a dry hole, a lot of money gets spent.
It is pretty cool to light a gas well and shoot a flame up in the air through a flow line. You see this pipe going into the ground. Out of it comes a freaking Saturn Five engine. That roar and heat is pretty cool. Oil flowing into stock tanks is also exciting, but even a half assed gas well really gives you a sense of the power in the Earth. All you are doing is exposing a normally pressured zone to atmospheric pressure. Let it roar for about five minutes. That costs maybe ten bucks worth of natural gas. Natural gas is very cheap at the wellhead.
Back to the Jurassic and Cretaceous....Google up stomata density in Gingko leaves. There is some pretty interesting data on fossil Gingko leaves and modern leaves grown under different CO2 partial pressure.
I just tried it, and you can get started by typing in the following words into Google:
"Cretaceous Greenhouse"
"Middle East Source Rock"
Here is a little snippet about the Cretaceous climate:
http://www.igsb.uiowa.edu/Mapping/greenhse/grnhouse.htm
Here is a decent non technical discussion of how the Middle East oil fields were sourced:
http://www.geoexpro.com/article/Why_So_Much_Oil_in_the_Middle_East/58d94fc1.aspx
It only took a few seconds to find some reading. I haven't kept up on it so much over the last five years or so. I've spent all of that time working the Mississippian stratigraphy of the midcontinent. It gets kind of boring, so occasionally I'll take a few days and just go map someplace else for a vacation.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Chief,
You must realize that when you state that weather is not climate, and then only a few sentences below state the lack of a single hurricane this year as meaning something makes you look, well, stupid? At the least inconsistent.
Go ahead. Read it. You wrote it.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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All natural gas is considered Biogenic. There are a few odd ducks who claim otherwise, but it isn't that complicated. Natural gas can be typed back to the same source rocks which produce oil. Coalbed methane is different.
I have never met anyone in the petroleum industry who claims that natural gas is abiogenic. Sure, there are some who claim otherwise, but if you looked over my shoulder for an afternoon, I could show you that no. It is biogenic. Almost all, anyway.
Nobody goes around drilling deep wells in igneous rocks anymore, if that tells you anything.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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There was a period of global anoxic oceans that led to the carbon rich rocks which sourced the middle east oil fields. That was considered a local event, but recently it has been correlated to rocks on the other side of the world, and current thinking is that it was a global anoxic event caused by ocean acidification. Not a local one. You must realize that through history, the surface looked much different than today, due to wandering continents. All of that has been pretty well pieced together by now. I refer you to the work of Blakey for snapshots through time.
You can believe this silly sh#t, but you can't believe the bible?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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I think it's pretty comical of BASES staunch stance against the burning of fossil fuels that are eroding earths atmosphere. When he is SOO closely tied to the root of the problem. Literally he digs into the ground solving problems for the Big Oil derelicts in the advancement of greed. Can I say hypocrite?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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You can call him a hypocrite but i think level headed and respected would be more accurate...?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus
A reminder Chef/Dick,of REAL science.
Not your 3%'s version.
From a marxist,socialist,college educated,self employed,never took a penny from the gov.,TAXPAYER.
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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Good comment Base, nice to see you posting here again.
You failed though. You unintentionally pulled an Ed and taught me something.;^)
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dirtbag
climber
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^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^
Idiot.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Biogenic or abiogenic Base, the gas would accumulate in the same traps. Correct me if i'm wrong here, but isn't there abundant sources of methane and other components in natural gas in the makeup of the gas giant planets, doesn't one of the moons of Saturn have an atmosphere composed primarily of methane? Isn't the natural gases a very significant component of the primordial stew that this second generation solar system was formed from? Are these primordial gases biogenic, leftovers from previous systems with carbon based life? You didn't answer my question about the surface radiation of the Earth from it's core. What happens to this "heat", if it doesn't heat the ocean depths does it then percolate to the surface through the fizz of excited CO2 molecules? Why doesn't the ocean depths act like the greenhouse they say the atmosphere with GHG's act like?
Hey, i've never accused you of being a marxist. You and your fellow scientists, technicians, workers, and management are vilified by the enviro's for providing the fuels that make our modern life possible. I just think that you are conflicted by your naturalist beliefs and what you percieve as it's loss to the ever increasing technological complexities of this modern world, made possible largely through the efforts of your industry. John Muir with a jackhammer syndrome.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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Nah, Fortmental- The Chief is younger than me, he would have left H.S. for the Navy during my single college year. He is teaching me now how to turn the tables on the CAGW crowd and their personal attack programs. Base did say that natural gas was primarily biogenic, which leaves the door open to an unknown quantity of primordial gas. Of course, no one i know of is suggesting any other source for crude oil other than biogenic.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Hey Dick,take a Geology class or five,will you.
Yeah the gas is left over from a previous event,How?
Did you learn that at a creationism website/church?
Tell me how that methane [one the lightest gases known] is trapped in rock a mile down in the earth.
I do thank Base for finding NG,it will be used as a bridge to the next alt/tech is implemented.
As for you deniers,no need to step aside when you are moving backwards.FAST.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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No, Wilbeer, i learned what i know from my wife who is a geologist and another 3 freinds who are practicing geologists. Why, Wilbeer are you working in construction instead of your field of geology when their is so much demand in the geology field. By the way, with the huge increase of new science publication contrary to CAGW and the ever increasing contrary observational evidence it is the AGW crowd furiously backpedaling. I'm just here helping, in my tiny efforts, to see that CAGW has a merciful death. You know, compassion and all.
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Spitzer
climber
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Now about the 0.8 watts per meter from the Earths core that is released globally, what happens to it, what effects does it have, and why are the ocean deeps universally 3-4 degrees centigrade all over the globe? If this constant radiation from the Earth's interior doesn't heat up the oceans depths how can atmospheric radiation sink and build up in the ocean depths?
rick sumner you have the wrong number from the wrong blog. You're off by an order of magnitude. If you did the math you'd find that it would take on the order of 10,000 years to heat the volume of water in the world's oceans just 1 degree Celsius.
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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Dick,there has been no need for geologists here in the NE ,That is till lately.
I have lived out west twice,and i am staying put.That said ,i have had two interviews this summer to work as a geo in PA.
I have worked as a carpenter since 76,The trade put me through college,and continues to be fruitful to this day.[minus a few blips]
And at 55,I just applied to Cornell.
I will die someday,but science will live.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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BB, Petroleum Geologists have the planet totally dialed. The late Mesozoic greenhouse event happened, and it happened due to high CO2. We even know how high the CO2 levels got, but I assume you won't Google it up for yourself and see. Rocks contain an incredible amount of info if you look.
That's all I said. Don't paint me as a member of any CAMP. I am a free agent.
As for TC, when he would come over and post on a thread, I would leave. That is exactly what I am going to do now with this thread. It isn't a nice place for an exchange of knowledge and ideas. It is the outhouse of supertopo, a place for rigid dogma and people who do not consider the ideas of others. It is an insult factory.
I bet that none of you google "cretaceous greenhouse."
If you do type that, you won't be taken to many of the typical global warming websites. You will find a lot of papers by geologists. Good papers.
We have known about that climate event for a couple of decades. Depositional environments of potential oil and gas reservoir rocks depend on climate to a degree. The organic rich shales which source all hydrocarbon basins are also intensely studied. They all required anoxic conditions. Those shales are the ones being fracked now.
Almost all of this work was done by petroleum geologists, or at least sedimentary geologists and petrologists. Not igneous petrologists so much.
And yeah, I do feel like a coca farmer for a bunch of coke heads when it comes to fossil fuels. I am pretty resigned about the whole thing. Nobody will do anything, because we can't do anything. It is going to happen if we get our CO2 up to 1000 ppm and also get a methane spike.
We will all be dead before anything really bad happens, most likely.
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