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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Much Love and Respect to all those, of every viewpoint, who have made this a respectful and civil discussion. It makes us a stronger community and make the Internet a tool rather than a fool.
The ability to dialog on these issues, particularly among those who have either/both established or challenged the style and ethics of our time, creates a reference for the decisions future generations as they navigate the thorny issues that are always there.
Somebody troll Shultz into signing up for Supertopo. (Walleye?) He's been a big part of some of the notable SFHD routes and his perspective would be a good contribution. Everybody needs to waste more of their time on new addictions.
As for me, I spent the whole day and part of the night yesterday taking three less-experienced friends up the Royal Arches and am ashamed to feel a bit sore from it all. Put's all this 5.12 talk into perspective for me. (although we could fight about the ethics of the Royal Arches rap route on another thread)
From observing their experience, I can say this much..."Experiential Voltage" is personal and relative... My guess is that there has been more total "Experiential Volage" on easy routes like Royal Arches than on all the X rated routes in Yosemite combined. Those climbing at their abilty/experience level get excited/scared/adventured.
I'll bet that those who pump out on the 8 pitches of 5.12 of "Growing Up" and have to face 20-30+ foot falls on the remaining route, with whatever daylight is left, will feel plenty adventured at the end of the day, and it's an adventure that they could suffer without blind abandonment of commitments to family and loved ones. Even the Elite who could climb a "Southern Belle" only climb like that fairly rarely, as evidenced by the lack of a coveted second ascent of "Karma."
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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I think it is OK that some routes, because of their nature, don't get repeated that much. I don't understand why a route has to be repeated over and over for it to be 'justified' or viewed as 'good'.
Bruce
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ha-ha
climber
location
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i love how worked up rockclimbers get over the way a peice of metal is inserted into a rock
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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If you put up a crappy rout and you don't drill or leave any iron and no one repeets it no big deal. If you put up a crap rout and litter it with pins and bolts and no one repeets it then you really just made a botch job of the whole thing.... :)
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BLD
Social climber
CA
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KARMA should be climbed again. Hopefully someone will and replace the EXISTING bolts. I wish I had the balls to do it. That route just looks awesome!
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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Lively discussion-wish my stocks had this much interest!
One small observation. It seems it is perceived that the "stye" in which Southern Belle was put up would is one in which, if imitated, would only result in another "death" route.
From what I can tell it seems that, climbing in the manner in which they did, they could have put in more bolts if they wanted, but for reasons only known to them, didn't. Now, what motivated that bit of frugalness would make for a very interesting thread.
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Chicken Skinner
Trad climber
Yosemite
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Jim,
Drilling is hard work and it is easy to get lured into going a bit higher where the stances look better. Often they aren't.
Ken
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Werner,
That was kind of what I was driving at with my Watts and Smith comments waay up thread. I was there a lot before, and during all that stuff. Even though I could see that there was some really cool rock getting climbed, I really disliked it. It was quite a zoo there for awhile. Luckily it dropped off the map of "where everyone has to go right away." The population has dimmed compared to what it was for a few years.
Nothing gets to stay the same forever, that's for sure.
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Jim Wilcox
Boulder climber
Santa Barbara
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"Drilling is hard work and it is easy to get lured into going a bit higher where the stances look better. Often they aren't. "
Oh, I definitely agree on that! And I have nothing but respect for those willing to put it all on the line. I believe it's climbs like B-Y, Southern Belle, Karma that ultimately help define the sport and transcend the ages, regardless of how few can do it. Or want to.
I absolutely did not mean "frugal" in a disrespectful manner-quite the contrary. Those who can do 5.11+ 90ft out are a special breed. Without people like that campfire talk would really be missing something.
I'm sure Doug's climb is a fine route, but in all my humbleness I honestly feel that's the best a rap route can ever hope to be,and nothing more.
Jim
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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From another thread.
The route was completed over three weekends, with the pair often starting out as early as 5am to avoid the extreme afternoon heat. During the first weekend, Cosgrove redpointed the second pitch, a short layback/undercling leading to an off-balance move, then a difficult crack system. This 5.12b pitch is protected by two bolts.
The second weekend brought more difficult climbing. The third pitch follows a beautiful overhanging crack splitting an outside corner, beginning as an offwidth and finishing with a 5.12c thin-hands crux. The fourth pitch, perhaps the crux of the route at 5.12c/d, starts on a very technical 80-degree face that is harder than the popular boulder problem Elegant Gypsy.
Cosgrove and Schultz spent the first two days of the final weekend fixing the fifth and sixth pitches, follwing a classic offset seam through the huge headwall to flakes and an obvious step right onto more hard face climbing. On their final day they jumared the fixed lines, dropped the extra ropes, and committed themselves to the top. The last eight pitches involved tricky, runout face climbing on excellent rock.
This in no way is putting down this ascent or the efforts of of the FA party.
This climb was sieged over a period of three weekends and then the FFA party jugged (aid) the first 7-8 pitches and then climbed the upper pitches.
Not very traditional ascent if you ask me. They bent/broke the "rules" when doing the ascent and used tactics that would have been ridicule and laugh at 10-20 years before.
Sound familiar??
So who did the FFCA and is their ascent "better" than the FFA?
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Mustang
climber
From the wild, not the ranch
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Okay, bored as heck, sitting home tonight, (sigh), sick as a dog, so what do I come across?
One of the best threads ever on the taco, it took about post 550 or something for the reality of what transpired on the SFHD to be fleshed out, thus inspiring me to join the commentary. (I did say I was bored as heck).
Props to Coz for starting this thread.
Invoking the cry of foul in a culture of sport that has no set rules, only a loose code of ethics and style, which is often ignored and disrespected in regards to a lesser cause of personal fulfillment or material gain, in which a stone is climbed, without hurling personal insults or threats to remove offending hardware or such, is incredibly respectful, esp in this place. It is evident of the respect you have for the mountains and everything related. Cheers.
There are many here that I have never met, yet I know who they are in the climbing world, through many various accounts of bold first ascents, solos, friends of friends, and just intelligent and informative posting on the taco. I have much respect for many who share their experience, valuable insight and passion for the sport. Karl, Ed, Werner, Pete, Ken, Bob, Doug, Russ, Bachar, Jello, Dingus, et al. (Speaking of Jello, wondering why he hasn’t chimed in on all this? I freakin’ know LEB is lurking, feverishly.)
It is also incredibly respectful of the first ascentionists to come before the climbing community that is Super Topo, and stand among their peers with grace and honesty, in light of committing a purported, mortal climbing sin of rap-bolting a big wall in the most hallowed ground of big wall climbing.
I have not ascended the climb of topic here, perhaps I may one day, but there are many other valley ‘classics’ that are still on my list, I would have to reserve something like that for later.
This brings me to this obvious, rhetorical question, and someone probably has already asked;
Isn’t the style or ethic that a climb was ‘put up’ completely decided by the first asentionists? Of course.
What I read from DR and Sean’s posts, much discussion was held and much anguish was felt because of the decisions they had before them. I believe it was troubling for them and they were sincere in their posts regarding this, considering the backlash they would ultimately face. I feel that a cumulative of 60 or so years of climbing experience did play a major part in their decision and they made that decision with incredible sensitivity to prevailing style and ethic that is Yosemite climbing.
An intriguing statement someone had made was, to paraphrase, what this means to the future of climbing. I believe the future is already here.
Whether it is for another tick, material gain, (some high-level climbers actually have somewhat normal lives these days, families and financial commitments), publication, sponsorship, or other, I have to say that this IS the world of climbing nowadays. The name of this controversial route says it all, ‘Growing Up’.
There will always be a battle between style and ethics, who, what, where, when, and the commercialism that has become a huge, driving part of climbing.
It’s difficult to comment either way on this topic because of the complexity involved in the decision making process of the first ascentionists. I wasn’t there and I don’t share their unique experiences.
It definitely would’ve been great style if they sent from ground up, and it is also quite disturbing to hear that 1000’ of virgin stone was bolted, rap down. That said, someone of DR’s reputation and experience as well as Sean’s, have raised a good, healthy debate of how a sub-culture of people from every imaginable background, can police themselves. The fact that either hasn’t shied away from the controversy this has caused, yet have faced it as adults, humble and respectful, says much. I respect that as well.
Is there now a route that goes to the top of the SFHD instead of ‘petering out’, will more people be inclined to try an ascent because it is ‘safer’? Yes and Yes. Is it a travesty to have a big wall rap bolted on such hallowed ground? Yes. Are there hideous bolt ladders installed to connect the free climbing sections? No. Will future ascentionists care if those upper pitches were rap bolted. Probably not.
Like someone else said, tomorrow, there will still be war and killing in Iraq and Afghanistan, gas will be ever climbing beyond $4 a gal, our economy will still be in the beginning of a serious recession, hundreds of thousands of children will die of starvation and disease, and we’ll continue to destroy the health of our planet.
In geological terms, none of this about style and ethics of first ascents won’t matter. On a human scale, the opinions of others within this community will.
And yes, the cold meds have kicked in fine, thanks.
Bump, for 800
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Thoughtful post
"In geological terms, none of this about style and ethics of first ascents won’t matter. On a human scale, the opinions of others within this community will. "
When we have bigger fish to fry, we'll be a stronger community for the fish fry because of what we are accomplishing here, a departure from the divisive slag fests of the past.
PEace
karl
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Smart man that Karl.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Dam I was just about to say that.
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jstan
climber
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Have you all noticed what happens when a lake freezes over? At first there is no order with random waves and other disturbances everywhere. Then the disturbances begin to lessen and lines begin to appear. The careful phrasing of peoples’ comments with muted emotion in this thread reminds me very much of the crystallization that occurred in the climbing community in the late sixties and early seventies. Very serious discussion began appearing all over the US with no warning.
Many of you were there so I am not telling you anything you don’t already know. Those of us younger than 30 years old did not have the great good fortune to go through those trying times. Perhaps our message to the young people should be that they should hold onto their hats. This will be the most amazing ride they will ever have a chance to take. Bar none.
Once old you somehow expect never to hear anything new. Recently Werner wrote something that felt very much like leaving a cold and seemingly endless bivy to meet the warming sun.
"You got to let people be who they are."
The task of figuring out how to accomplish this will fall to each of us.
And no one will be left unchanged.
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Sluggo
Big Wall climber
zanadu
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The one positive result of this thread is that now all the ST cheaters are exposed! We knew about Bob and Kevin,but Karl,a closet rapbolter!!
Two things that are generally true about this shadowy fraternity :
1)They own a chisel and glue for thier First Descents
2)They will try to hide thier deep seated guilt with endless rationalizations about pure difficulty,communty service and fun. All to no avail.It will eat them up inside.....after all,what climber would approve of the title"rapbolter" on thier tombstone!A great pity really.
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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I've been thinking about runouts and the Bold Standard™. And realizing that I've been functioning here, in climbing in general, a bit like a safety monitor.
When I was in Kindergarden and they gave us colored paper and glue, I cut and pasted mine into a sash like the big kids wore who got to be crossing guards at intersections.
Later I Grew Up™ and started edging some necky runouts into my climbing. I'm a guide, remember, so as I plied my craft and kept a protective bubble of safety around my clients, I could still Get Neck-ed™ myself, just to amuse myself at work like a lot of this group seems to do by keping ST open on a corner of their desktop. So I ran it out as I rope-gunned. I did a lot of 5.4X and 5.5X and 5.6X. Miles of it over the years and through the decades.
Three times, so far, I've had very close calls.
Once was when I was in the best shape of my life, just completely tuned up at the end of a many-month climbing spree to celebrate turning 40. I was so honed that I'd been rope-gunning 5.9 cracks for a client, all day with no pro. So a 5.9X day. Those are pretty rare because I wig out and lose it pretty often trying to solo. At the end of that day I found myself soloing a 5.11X crack. Onsight. I got stuck, spent some long minutes terrified for my very life, then fell 40 feet and decked onto solid rock. Broke my back, but boy was I excited to still be alive.
Another time I was soloing the Royal Arches, just for exercise, just for fun. That was in the days before there was a fixed rope at the pendulum, so my only gear was 40' of 9 mil. That was also before the Rotten Log got pitched off. (Had he freed past it? Was that some kind of statement about ethics?)
At the time you normally had to rig a second pendulum to get to the base of the Log. There I made an incredibly stupid rope-handling error and found myself flying. Very surprised, and looking at 700 feet to the ground. Reacting at the Speed of Adrenaline™, I caught a thumb on a passing edge, slowing myself enough not to roll, bounce or slither off the traverse ledge. Again I was way excited to be alive.
But that time my thumb was grotesquely dislocated and sticking off the back of my hand. It hurt so bad I may have blacked out, but not until I had belayed myself by wedging my head between the wall and the root of an oak tree growing off the ledge.
Getting down was pretty difficult. A few 20' body raps. And a lot of downclimbing. I could grip with the other four fingers on that hand, only I discovered that the nerves in my arm were in the habit of gripping all five fingers at once, which twitched my dislocated thumb and caused waves of pain that threatened to black me out again. Not a good idea in, say, the middle of climbing down the Bearhug pitch.
I walked into the clinic just as they were closing and got a "sorry, come back tomorrow" until I showed them my thumb. They had to drug me to re-locate it. Soon I was showing off my new cast in the bar, and two days later I was back to guiding, learning how to crimp the four fingers sticking out of my cast while relaxing the thumb. It took a year for that thumb to get back to strength.
The third time, nothing happened. Eighty feet out, guiding on Temple Crag, my home turf. All I did was lose my balance for just a moment. From eighty feet below, my client likely never noticed me wobble. I grabbed the rock so tight, and a wave of adrenaline soaked me in sweat. Soon enough I climbed on, as if I had just paused to catch my breath. But I'll never forget that moment.
So I bring a certain amount of informed opinion to runouts. I'm stoked to be alive after two death falls. And I still run it out plenty.
It would be fair to say that I'm into boldness but I also embrace my Inner Safety Monitor™. Maybe that's a character flaw, an Inherent Contradiction™. Whatever. I'm the one's gotta live with it. And fortunately live is the operative term here. I find myself still very alive.
Inner Safety Monitor was talking pretty loud when we thought about what to do on that upper wall of Half Dome. "I resent that the X-Men™ have an exclusive monopoly on the slabs of the South Face," he said. "They've got a stranglehold on what is clearly some of the finest, most challenging, and most purely fun-to-climb-on stone on this particular planet."
Hmmm, that would be the only planet I get to scamper around on in this lifetime...
"No place to stop and drill," pressed Inner Safety Monitor, "Hardly even any hook placements to drill from."
"Sure looks like great climbing," whispered my Inner Fun Hog™ in the other ear.
"It ain't fair for the X-Men to get this whole wall all to themselves," Safety Monitor continued. "Are you taking anything away from them by doing a different climb in a different way? They had their experience. They're proud. I'm impressed, way impressed and humbled by their stellar Southern Belle and their awesome Karma. Proud lines, and nothing I can do detracts from that. Just like Peace takes nothing away from the Bachar-Yerian. In fact, Peace actually seems to enhance the value of a Bachar-Yerian. At the very least they're just separate lines that went their separate ways."
"C'mon, you know you want it," pipes up Fun Hog. "You know many, many others will climb it too, and be grateful to have the chance. They'll be dancin' with glee over this unbelievable stone -- everybody who'se been up there says so. They'll sweat plenty on the runouts you leave too. Ain't no sport climb. They could still break an ankle, but they'd have to land completely wrong to die. Go for it."
So we did.
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Buggs
Trad climber
Eagle River, Alaska
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DMT,
Nice post. Cool thinking that nature will return things to the norm after we are all gone. Insects are some of the sturdiest inhabiting this planet.
Buggs (not the sturdy kind)
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Weird post Sluggo and what a sad place in your life you must be to call someone a cheater because they don't adhere to some style of climbing that you hold so dearly.
I would never judge a human being by the style of the routes he does or doesn't do.
Much rather base it on personal experiences..then again...I consider myself to have evolve...maybe it will happen for you in the future.
Nice post Dingus...the earth will finish it's journey...with or without us and bolts on wall mean nothing if you understand that.
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How far apart were the bolts placed on the rap-bolted upper section?
Let us know!