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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Jul 20, 2011 - 03:40pm PT
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^^ Right ON Elcapinyoazz!!!! ^^
Or as Skipper would put it "That CLOWN nailed it".
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apogee
climber
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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"Nah, probably because you spout demonstrably false talking points and come across as dumb-as-a-stump and constitutionally incapable of detailed, rational discussion."
Yep, that about says it all.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
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Dana Milbank nails it...and so does Ronald Reagan!
“Congress consistently brings the government to the edge of default before facing its responsibility,” Reagan says in the clip. “This brinkmanship threatens the holders of government bonds and those who rely on Social Security and veterans benefits. Interest rates would skyrocket, instability would occur in financial markets, and the federal deficit would soar. The United States has a special responsibility to itself and the world to meet its obligations.”
Other goodies:
Tea Party Republicans call a vote to raise the debt ceiling a threat to their very existence; Reagan presided over 18 increases in the debt ceiling during his presidency.
Tea Party Republicans say they would sooner default on the national debt than raise taxes; Reagan agreed to raise taxes 11 times.
Tea Party Republicans, in “cut, cap and balance” legislation on the House floor Tuesday, voted to cut government spending permanently to 18 percent of gross domestic product; under Reagan, spending was as high as 23.5 percent and never below 21.3 percent of GDP.
But while Reagan nostalgia endures, a number of Republicans have begun to admit the obvious: The Gipper would no longer be welcome on the GOP team. Most recently, Rep. Duncan Hunter Jr. (Calif.) called Reagan a “moderate former liberal . . . who would never be elected today in my opinion.” This spring, Mike Huckabee judged that “Ronald Reagan would have a very difficult, if not impossible time being nominated in this atmosphere,” pointing out that Reagan “raises taxes as governor, he made deals with Democrats, he compromised on things in order to move the ball down the field.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-new-party-of-reagan/2011/07/19/gIQAuckfOI_story.html?hpid=z3
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:22pm PT
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The "demographic" problem for the Republicans well may be Mythical.
Young Hispanics Say Cut Spending, Liberate Business
Generation Opportunity recently commissioned a poll of young Hispanics (ages 18-29). The survey was conducted in April and has a margin of error +/- 4%. The results are striking: young Hispanics, like young Americans generally, want opportunity and understand that opportunity comes from the private sector:
* By nearly a 3:1 ratio, Hispanic young adults prefer “reducing federal spending” (69%) to “raising taxes on individuals” (27%) in order to balance the federal budget.
* 70% of Hispanic young adults would decrease federal spending if given the chance to set America’s fiscal priorities.
* A 57%-majority of Hispanics agree that “if taxes on business profits were reduced, companies would be more likely to hire.”
* In a separate question, a 56%-majority concurred “the economy grows best when individuals are allowed to create businesses without government interference.”
* 61% indicated their agreement with “American Exceptionalism” – described as an ideal of freedom and democracy exclusive and unique to the United States.
These results are heartening, but they probably shouldn’t be surprising, given how many Hispanic Americans are engaged in small business. They suggest that the GOP’s message on spending and debt will find a receptive audience among young people generally.
The economic problem for the Democrats (There's no more money to buy votes with) certainly isn't.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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Sure TGT, then the xenophobes in your party get all racist and hateful and spoil it.
Your Party should've listened to Rove and Bush a few years ago and embrace a more moderate immigration policy, but nope!
Yeah, I know, I know, if our leaders were less RINO and far more right wing then they'd really win a bunch of elections! LOL!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 20, 2011 - 04:35pm PT
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Sure TGT, then the xenophobes in your party get all racist and hateful and spoil it.
Sad to say, dirtbag, you're right about that. Navarette's columns -- which are neither Republican nor Democrat -- should be mandatory reading for anyone interested in the changes in the political landscape. Neither party has done well or right, in my opinion, by our Hispanic population.
John
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jul 20, 2011 - 05:29pm PT
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TGT is about the same as Skipper...just incapable of analysis and overly-prone to spouting whatever the marching-order talking points of the day handed down by Limbaugh and crew happen to be.
By nearly a 3:1 ratio, Hispanic young adults prefer “reducing federal spending” (69%) to “raising taxes on individuals” (27%) in order to balance the federal budget.
The question is meaningless. It implies that THE choice is cut spending or everyone pays more taxes. It's like asking anybody "do you want to pay more taxes?"...of course you will get a big majority who say "no". When you poll on realistic questions, i.e. "would you prefer to increase taxes on millionaires, billionaires, and corporations and keep middle class tax rates the same, or would you rather cut food stamps and medicare" you will get quite a different answer.
I'm firmly a Democratic party voter at this point and if you asked me how to balance the budget it would involve quite a bit of spending cuts...but those cuts wouldn't be piddly-ass nothing programs or beneficial programs where there is no real money but things like Dept of Defense. You ask GOP what to cut and it's "well, defense is off the table, but we'll cut all that aid to furinurs and that'll do it". Well, you've cut all foreign aid and eliminated about 1% of the deficit, now what? And after several iterations of this game, you realize the GOP are a ridiculous clown show with no real plan and their numbers don't even come close to adding up or solving any problems. Hell, wonderboy Paul Ryans plan didn't even lower the deficit from a do-nothing baseline...simply doing nothing would have had a better deficit outcome that the plan from the GOP's "leading light, budget wonk". It would be comical if it weren't so sad and frankly depressing since these people hold actual power in our govt.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 20, 2011 - 05:41pm PT
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The question is meaningless. It implies that THE choice is cut spending or everyone pays more taxes.
It is a terrible question and a classic example of the "false choice" logical fallacy.
"Reduce Federal Spending" is abstract and vague. Most people won't object to this general idea, since they assume it is probably someone else that will be affected.
But when folks hear the term "Raise Taxes," what they hear is "raise my taxes." Not as popular as cutting someone else's benefits.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 20, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
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He forgots to mention, the only reason JFK lowered taxes was because he was closing massive loopholes that the rich were using to pay a lower tax. The Rich actually paid More under JFK's plan, since they had to pay the new fixed rate. So JFK did Not lower taxes on the rich, he raised them.
Craig, I think you're confusing Kennedy's tax cuts with the tax cuts of the 1980's. The latter cut rates and closed loopholes simultaneously. Kennedy's tax cuts were general tax cuts that today's Republicans would support, and today's Democrats would oppose, if you believe their current rhetoric.
JFK lowered taxes because his economic advisors were convinced that a recession was approaching. If it's still in print (which I doubt), you might want to check out Macroeconomic Activity: Theory, Forecasting and Control by Michael Evans. That book, written in the 1960's, details both the rationale of the Kennedy tax cuts (at the time, we thought we'd conquered the business cycle) and the then-current economic theory justifying the cuts, written by the main formulator of the Wharton EFU econometric model, and a classic Keynesian.
The recession of 1973-75 forced Evans to change his theories to account for the role of monetary policy, but the book is the best exposition of the JFK tax cuts of which I am aware.
John
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apogee
climber
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Jul 21, 2011 - 01:50am PT
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"TGT is about the same as Skipper."
Nah, I wouldn't say that. Though they both appear to carry a big chip on their shoulder about sumthin', TGT has clearly demonstrated his understanding of political history and ability to relate it. Some of us might find his ideology to be pretty extreme, but he can at least articulate his beliefs clearly with a minimum of ad hominems. Hard to say the same about skippy boy.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jul 21, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
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Alexis had it all figured out in 1830
It is certain that despotisim ruins individuals by preventing them from producing wealth much more than depriving them of what they have already produced; it dries up the source of riches, while it usually respects acquired property. Freedom, on the on the contrary, produces far more goods than it destroys; and the nations which are favored by free institutions invariably find that their resources increase even more rapidly than their taxes
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 04:24pm PT
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It is certain that despotisim ruins individuals by preventing them from producing wealth much more than depriving them of what they have already produced; it dries up the source of riches, while it usually respects acquired property.
TFPU, TGT. That sums up what is wrong with the Republicans quite neatly. Their despotism will fail.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 21, 2011 - 06:36pm PT
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$30,000
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 21, 2011 - 07:50pm PT
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Reagan was pragmatic:
Tea Party Republicans call a vote to raise the debt ceiling a threat to their very existence; Reagan presided over 18 increases in the debt ceiling during his presidency.
Tea Party Republicans say they would sooner default on the national debt than raise taxes; Reagan agreed to raise taxes 11 times.
Tea Party Republicans, in "cut, cap and balance" legislation on the House floor Tuesday, voted to cut government spending permanently to 18 percent of gross domestic product; under Reagan, spending was as high as 23.5 percent and never below 21.3 percent of GDP.
That same legislation would take federal spending down to a level last seen in 1966, before Medicare was fully up and running; Reagan in 1988 signed a major expansion of Medicare.
All of which shows that Reagan once supported economic polices that are no longer acceptable to GOP leaders. But none of that proves he wouldn't adjust to the GOP party line today. Were he alive today, it's hard to imagine him steering the tea party and GOP leaders toward sweet reason and compromise, especially since he used his majorities in congress to steam-roll Dems every chance he could.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:04pm PT
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Skip, my intent was not to "lecture" anyone.
I just found it interesting how Reagan handled debt increases.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:07pm PT
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Me too.
And I meant what I said, Reagan was pragmatic, I always liked that about him.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
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Here's a chart I found on the internet. (It doesn't attribute a source, but I'll use it anyway, and interpret it in a way that makes my partisan point.)
As you can see, tax cuts were far larger under Democratic administrations than Republican, and Reagan raised taxes more than Obama and Clinton combined.
Also, I read somewhere that the spending reductions promised under the Reagan administration never happened. He failed to execute.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
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Donald,
The debt limit has been raised dozens of times, under both Democratic and Republican Presidents and Congresses. Every time it is raised for the same reason; because it was not raised, the government would default. That's why it's called a LIMIT.
But you claim it is some sort of "trick" that only applies to Democrats. It makes no sense and is completely inconsistent with well-known historical facts.
Before you cut and paste from your conservative websites, do you even pause for a second to think about what it says? Do you even evaluate whether or not it makes any sense at all? It appears that you do not.
Try turning off Limbaugh once in a while and turning on your brain. There are plenty of sound, rational conservative arguments to be made, but you aren't cutting and pasting any of them.
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Mangy Peasant
Social climber
Riverside, CA
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Jul 21, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
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Locker:
I still climb a couple times a month. I'm as good as I ever was, which isn't very good.
I like to talk climbing, but truth is, there's only so much to talk about when it comes to climbing. How many booty and bolting ethics debates do we have to have before it becomes tiresome? I can pull up 20 year old threads from rec.climbing that will look just like recent ones on ST.
At least politics provides us with a steady supply of new material.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 21, 2011 - 09:23pm PT
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The droit de seigneur seems a much more Republican modus operandi.
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