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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 10, 2009 - 08:01pm PT
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Besides, you kinda look younger in the at cartoon!
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scabang
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2009 - 08:13pm PT
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Wow! 900 post's - who would've thought; thank you everyone! 820 Palestinians killed which includes only 235 children; never to see another sunrise (Israeli's? Well, thankfully they've managed to "scribble" more of their own i.e 'friendly fire'. Pilots, tank commanders and artillery types must be profoundly proud of there kill rate. Well done chaps, Hitler would've been proud of you although i don't think that he corralled everyone into a tiny piece of land and bombed the shite out of them. Anyhow, thanks again and we can all look forward to reaching 1000. HAPPY NEW YEAR!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 10, 2009 - 11:07pm PT
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Kind and Happy:
This might be a good spot to point out there is a long and "proud" history of political satire by specialist writers and cartoonists. If it weren't for them everybody would probably go insane. Most of them are takes on stereotypes and caricatures of celebrity, career polititians. Yet, I'm afraid Fattrad may have placed himself in that catagory, given his penchant for name dropping. It didn't phase me personally to have been drafted into a star role recently in a revenge murder scenario, and somehow I think and hope Fattrad can take it. As long as those who dish it out can also take it...
But I esteem your decency and hope I'm not being condenscending.
I can't draw a simple circle or reasonably straight line. -Bruce
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:12am PT
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This was largo's post over at rc.com and reflects exactly what I was thinking.
Largo said:
Good intentioned people have been discussing and debating this problem as nauseum and yet the fighting continues. Talking, apparently, alters nothing.
What to actually do, when it seems that - for the world at large - Israeli lives are valued over Palestinians, like, 100 to 1. I mean, really, who gives a sh#t about the Palestinians, other than for armchair humanitarians (like me) to give them lip service?
I don't blame Israel's retaliation for bombs lobbed their way but surely some of their more aggressive responses don't square with international law. Is there anyone stepping forward to enforce anything over there?
Clearly, no one in power actually cares enough about Palestine to do a damn thing (there's no money in it for anyone), leaving Israel to police the joint by default. As is, as has been for 2,000 years, nothing is changing. The only delusion is to believe it will so long as the international community continues to do basically the same thing - discuss and debate the situation.
JL
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:18am PT
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Three cheers for Fatalism!!!!!!!!!
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:27am PT
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"What to actually do, when it seems that - for the world at large - Israeli lives are valued over Palestinians, like, 100 to 1. I mean, really, who gives a sh#t about the Palestinians"
But seriously, this is very mistaken when you consider that the subject of Palestinian justice is a central defining issue of modern religion and politics throughout the Islamic world (>800,000,000) and definitely beyond. John and Werner --very few of them are Sufi Mystics.
edit: (unless by value you mean "economic value")
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:30am PT
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There you go again "lip service"
......continues to do basically the same thing - discuss and debate the situation.
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:41am PT
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No, I insist Werner...people who I know and love. Not just lip service.
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jbar
Ice climber
Russia with love.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:47am PT
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Don't respond, don't respond, don't respond . . . .
goose fraba, goose fraba . . . Oh damn!
"Clearly, no one in power actually cares enough about Palestine to do a damn thing (there's no money in it for anyone)"
This is an EXCELLENT point! And not just about the Israeli/Pallestinian conflict. This is the exact reason we should never consider what the UN says about anything.Can't tell you the number of times I've stood and listened to America getting slammed by the media while all around were U.N. food aid bags with U.S. printed all over them. The U.S. is by far the #1 contributor to the U.N. and we shouldn't be. They did a fine job of standing by and watching in Rowanda. "Hotel Rowanda" tries to illustrate this. A few examples from this past week include: Philippine separatist(islamic) bombings, Sunni-Shia attacks in Pakistan, Somali pirates seize yet another ship, UN aid workers killed in Somalia, and an escalation of the tribal war in Kenya that some are starting to compare to Rowanda. Who should care about this? Who should try to do something about this?
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ahad aham
Trad climber
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Jan 11, 2009 - 07:25am PT
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the enablers of Israeli power lie here. This bill was drafted by AIPAC. Any of these your congressman? Only 5 had the sac to stand up to the lobby. Drop them a line and let them know in no uncertain terms where you stand:
FINAL VOTE RESULTS FOR ROLL CALL 10
(Democrats in roman; Republicans in italic; Independents underlined)
H RES 34 2/3 YEA-AND-NAY 9-Jan-2009 1:40 PM
QUESTION: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Agree
BILL TITLE: Recognizing Israel’s right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza, reaffirming the United States’ strong support for Israel, and supporting the Israeli-Palestinian peace process
Yeas Nays PRES NV
Democratic 222 4 22 8
Republican 168 1 8
Independent
TOTALS 390 5 22 16
---- YEAS 390
Ackerman
Aderholt
Adler (NJ)
Akin
Alexander
Altmire
Andrews
Arcuri
Austria
Baca
Bachmann
Bachus
Baldwin
Barrett (SC)
Barrow
Bartlett
Barton (TX)
Bean
Becerra
Berkley
Berman
Biggert
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bishop (GA)
Bishop (NY)
Bishop (UT)
Blackburn
Blunt
Boccieri
Boehner
Bonner
Bono Mack
Boozman
Boren
Boswell
Boustany
Boyd
Brady (PA)
Brady (TX)
Braley (IA)
Bright
Broun (GA)
Brown, Corrine
Brown-Waite, Ginny
Buchanan
Burgess
Burton (IN)
Butterfield
Buyer
Calvert
Camp
Campbell
Cantor
Cao
Capito
Capps
Capuano
Cardoza
Carnahan
Carney
Carson (IN)
Carter
Cassidy
Castle
Castor (FL)
Chaffetz
Chandler
Childers
Clarke
Clay
Cleaver
Clyburn
Coble
Coffman (CO)
Cohen
Cole
Conaway
Connolly (VA)
Conyers
Cooper
Costa
Costello
Courtney
Crenshaw
Crowley
Cuellar
Culberson
Cummings
Dahlkemper
Davis (AL)
Davis (CA)
Davis (IL)
Davis (KY)
Davis (TN)
Deal (GA)
DeGette
DeLauro
Dent
Diaz-Balart, L.
Diaz-Balart, M.
Dicks
Doggett
Donnelly (IN)
Doyle
Dreier
Driehaus
Duncan
Edwards (TX)
Ehlers
Ellsworth
Emerson
Engel
Eshoo
Etheridge
Fallin
Fattah
Filner
Flake
Fleming
Forbes
Fortenberry
Foster
Foxx
Frank (MA)
Franks (AZ)
Frelinghuysen
Fudge
Garrett (NJ)
Gerlach
Giffords
Gillibrand
Gingrey (GA)
Gohmert
Gonzalez
Goodlatte
Gordon (TN)
Grayson
Green, Al
Green, Gene
Griffith
Guthrie
Gutierrez
Hall (NY)
Hall (TX)
Halvorson
Hare
Harman
Harper
Hastings (FL)
Hastings (WA)
Heinrich
Heller
Herger
Higgins
Hill
Himes
Hinojosa
Hirono
Hodes
Hoekstra
Holden
Holt
Honda
Hoyer
Hunter
Inglis
Inslee
Israel
Issa
Jackson (IL)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Jenkins
Johnson (IL)
Johnson, E. B.
Johnson, Sam
Jordan (OH)
Kanjorski
Kaptur
Kennedy
Kildee
Kilroy
Kind
King (IA)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Kirkpatrick (AZ)
Kissell
Klein (FL)
Kline (MN)
Kosmas
Kratovil
Lamborn
Lance
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Latham
LaTourette
Latta
Lee (NY)
Levin
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (GA)
Linder
Lipinski
LoBiondo
Loebsack
Lofgren, Zoe
Lowey
Lucas
Luetkemeyer
Luján
Lummis
Lungren, Daniel E.
Lynch
Mack
Maffei
Maloney
Manzullo
Marchant
Markey (CO)
Markey (MA)
Marshall
Massa
Matheson
Matsui
McCarthy (CA)
McCarthy (NY)
McCaul
McClintock
McCotter
McGovern
McHenry
McHugh
McIntyre
McKeon
McMahon
McMorris Rodgers
McNerney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Melancon
Mica
Michaud
Miller (FL)
Miller (MI)
Miller (NC)
Minnick
Mitchell
Mollohan
Moore (KS)
Moran (KS)
Murphy (CT)
Murphy, Patrick
Murphy, Tim
Murtha
Myrick
Nadler (NY)
Napolitano
Neal (MA)
Neugebauer
Nunes
Nye
Oberstar
Obey
Olson
Ortiz
Pallone
Pascrell
Pastor (AZ)
Paulsen
Pelosi
Pence
Perlmutter
Perriello
Peters
Peterson
Petri
Pingree (ME)
Pitts
Platts
Poe (TX)
Polis (CO)
Pomeroy
Posey
Price (GA)
Price (NC)
Putnam
Radanovich
Rangel
Rehberg
Reichert
Reyes
Richardson
Rodriguez
Roe (TN)
Rogers (AL)
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Rooney
Ros-Lehtinen
Roskam
Ross
Rothman (NJ)
Roybal-Allard
Royce
Ruppersberger
Rush
Ryan (OH)
Ryan (WI)
Salazar
Sánchez, Linda T.
Sarbanes
Scalise
Schakowsky
Schauer
Schiff
Schmidt
Schock
Schrader
Schwartz
Scott (GA)
Scott (VA)
Sensenbrenner
Serrano
Sessions
Sestak
Shea-Porter
Sherman
Shimkus
Shuler
Shuster
Simpson
Sires
Skelton
Slaughter
Smith (NE)
Smith (NJ)
Smith (TX)
Smith (WA)
Souder
Space
Speier
Spratt
Stearns
Stupak
Sullivan
Sutton
Tanner
Tauscher
Taylor
Teague
Terry
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Thompson (PA)
Thornberry
Tiberi
Tierney
Titus
Tonko
Towns
Tsongas
Turner
Upton
Van Hollen
Velázquez
Visclosky
Walden
Walz
Wamp
Wasserman Schultz
Watt
Waxman
Weiner
Welch
Westmoreland
Wexler
Whitfield
Wilson (OH)
Wilson (SC)
Wittman
Wolf
Wu
Yarmuth
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
---- NAYS 5
Kucinich
Moore (WI)
Paul
Rahall
Waters
---- ANSWERED “PRESENT” 22
Abercrombie
Blumenauer
DeFazio
Dingell
Edwards (MD)
Ellison
Farr
Grijalva
Hinchey
Johnson (GA)
Kilpatrick (MI)
Lee (CA)
McCollum
McDermott
Miller, George
Moran (VA)
Olver
Payne
Sanchez, Loretta
Stark
Watson
Woolsey
---- NOT VOTING 16
Baird
Berry
Boucher
Brown (SC)
Delahunt
Gallegly
Granger
Graves
Hensarling
Herseth Sandlin
Jones
Kagen
Shadegg
Snyder
Solis (CA)
Tiahrt
here's a link that might help:
http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=1780
this link makes it easy to email congressman;
http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html
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Brunosafari
Boulder climber
Redmond, OR
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Jan 11, 2009 - 10:49am PT
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Good Morning All! I wanted to take a moment and respond a little more more to Werner's post above, in which he quotes Largo.
One would truly have to be a moroon (Skipts term) to fail to recognize how incredibly intracted and futile the "peace process" of debate and passion seems to be on this modern conflict which does have ancient roots. My concern about Largo's post is that it might be interpreted by some as a call to violent action as an alternative to negotiation, by those with a superficial view of "law." Knowing Largo personally, I'm confident that is not at all what he is saying. I expect Werner and John are calling us to a deeper consciousness, first hand experience, or possibly, to engage ourselves in positve peacemaking actions which speak louder that words.
I want to post reminder that all of us have different tolerances for argument, and some personalities have no qualms about injecting personal judgements. I grew up in a family where nightly current event wars around the dinner table were to be expected. My mother had the ability to bring some calm to it by bringing in a world almanac, or encyclopaedia, which had the effect of shifting the tide and promoting reason. My wife comes from a family which avoided political and religious conflicts of any kind, and she has little tolerance for it, being more interested in patient observation and personal authenticity.
Earlier upthread, Jeleazarian provided us with a story of friendship forged between an Israeli and a Palestinian. I myself related my experience of recognizing my own racial prejudice and have offered for reflection, my strong experiences befriending internationals in my own home, among my children. All three of my children, now grown, have already demonstrated an exceptional maturity interculturally.
It may be that the most difficult boulder problems seem impossible and involve some cursing and group competition. But that is different than saying it is hopeless. It may be there is a Providential Destiny at work, yet that does not waive Human Responsibility, as Lincoln deeply exposited.
It is always a good reminder to recognize the limitations of debate and government, because convictions and consequences truly do result from a consensus of our inner beings.
There are three questions here: Is war ever just? If so, is this particular war just? And finally, if so, is it being waged in a just manner? Let's "get out the world almanac and encyclopedia" AND lets get humbly on our knees.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:51am PT
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Watch this then tell me my comic was not funny or in bad taste or mean spirited or what ever you want to tell me or call me. But first watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfhoU66s4Y
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 11:58am PT
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'Phosphorus' fears over Gaza wounds
Human Rights Watch said it was clear Israel had fired shells containing white phopshorus[GALLO/GETTY]
Doctors in Gaza City have told Al Jazeera that people have been admitted suffering burns consistent with the use of the controversial chemical white phosphorus.
Human rights campaigners say that Israeli forces used the munition, which can burn away human flesh to the bone, over Gaza City and Jabaliya in recent days.
Residents in densely-packed Jabaliya have described Israeli forces exploding shells that drop scores of burning fragments and spread suffocating smoke.
"Its the first time we see this type of weapon, it must be new and its seems like its phosphorous," one resident told Al Jazeera.
"Its suffocating and has a deadly poisonous smell that I am sure will cause a lot of sickness and disease on all of the civilians here," he said.
Law 'violated'
Another witness said she saw "... a bright flash and then all of these sparks fell on our area ... landing all around us and in our homes. Our mattresses caught on fire".
IN DEPTH
Analysis and features from Gaza and Israel
Track the war and submit your own reports
Send us your views and eyewitness videos
Watch our coverage of the war on Gaza
The use of the munition in densely-populated areas violates the requirement under international humanitarian law for all feasible precautions to be taken to avoid civilian injury and loss of life, Human Rights Watch said.
International law permits its use in order to cover troop movements and prevent enemies from using certain guided weapons.
Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst at the human rights group told Al Jazeera on Saturday that he had watched Israeli ground forces using white phosphorus.
"Clearly it is [white phosphorus], we can tell by the explosions and the tendrils that go down [and] the fires that were burning," he said.
"Today there were massive attacks in Jabaliya when we were there. We saw that there were numerous fires once the white phosphorus had gone in.
"We went by Israeli artillery units that had white phosphorus rounds with the fuses in them."
Mark Regev, the Israeli government spokesman, said he was unable to confirm or deny whether the military was using the chemical, but that Israel did not use munitions that were banned under international law.
"I don't have the knowledge of the detail of what ammunition we are using. I can only know for a fact that Israel uses no ammunition that is outlawed under conventions and that Nato forces would not use in a similar combat situation," he told Al Jazeera.
Israel used white phophorus during its 34-day war against Lebanon's Hezbollah movement in 2006, while the United States used it during the controversial siege of the Iraqi city of Fallujah in 2004.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Jan 11, 2009 - 12:00pm PT
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Israel is Immune From Criticism
By BRIAN CLOUGHLEY
The state of Israel has descended – plummeted – to one of the lowest levels of conscious barbarity that is currently evident in this horrible world.
Any nation that has behaved towards a subject people, as Israel has to Palestinians, is worthy only of utter contempt. On Sunday January 4 I heard a rabbi on the BBC's morning religious program saying that he supported Israel's air strikes on Gaza. A man of God actually endorsed the killing of hundreds of people. To say that I was – and am – aghast at the sentiment expressed is to put it very mildly. This religious leader, a person supposed to spread and preach tolerance, patience, charity and peace, was supporting war crimes of immense gravity. His approval of the killing of Arabs was blood-chilling.
And this rabbi was British. Here we have a British citizen supporting hatred and bigotry on a BBC religious program. But of course he isn't really British. He is an Israeli religious propagandist of British citizenship whose main allegiance is to Israel. There are thousands like him in the UK and the US. They unconditionally promote Tel Aviv's plans and policy and wield amazing influence over politicians and businesses. Killing Palestinians is Israeli policy, and these people spare no effort to justify it.
Here's a resident of Gaza talking to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz about the horrors experienced by Palestinians (and congratulations to Haaretz for having the courage to print it): "I keep the children away from the windows because the F-16s are in the air; I forbid them to play below because it's dangerous. They're bombing us from the sea and from the east, they're bombing us from the air. When the telephone works, people tell us about relatives or friends who were killed. My wife cries all the time. At night she hugs the children and cries. It's cold and the windows are open; there's fire and smoke in open areas; at home there's no water, no electricity, no heating gas. And you [the Israelis] say there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Tell me, are you normal?"
No, they're not, is the short answer, and the ruthlessness is epitomised by the evil Israeli foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, who is using the Gaza war to establish her credentials as a reliably hard-nosed barbarian. She declares "there is no humanitarian crisis in the [Gaza] Strip and therefore there is no need for a humanitarian truce."
It was reported on January 5 that Israeli troops are using white phosphorus (WP) artillery shells in Gaza, supposedly to create smoke screens to conceal their advance.
American troops used WP – fondly known as Willy Pete – in their destruction of the Iraqi city of Fallujah, and the US tried to lie its way out of the war crime, but junior officers unintentionally blew the lies apart by writing in the magazine Field Artillery that "WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions . . . and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against insurgents in trench lines and spider holes . . . We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents using WP to flush them out and high explosive shells (HE) to take them out." In fact WP is an effective killer, and anyone who inhales particles will suffer a particularly hideous and painful death. As recorded by The Independent newspaper in Britain "In the aftermath of the battle [at Fallujah], the State Department's Counter Misinformation Office issued a statement saying that WP was only "used very sparingly in Fallujah, for illumination purposes. They were fired into the air to illuminate enemy positions at night [which isn't the propose of a smoke-shell], not at enemy fighters." When The Independent confronted the State Department with the first-hand accounts of soldiers who participated, an official accepted the mistake and undertook to correct its website." Big deal. Lie, lie and lie again, until you're found out and it's impossible to deny the facts. And the Israelis seem to be taking the example, as usual, and are stoutly denying what has been seen by independent witnesses.
Article two, Protocol III of the 1980 UN Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons states: "It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects, the object of attack by incendiary weapons." But Israel is only following the US example. "Shake and bake" is such an attractive military option that it would be a shame to spoil their fun, especially when it has rabbinical approval.
Here is part of what is laid out in Protocol 1, Additional to the Geneva Conventions, 1977 . . . General Protection Against Effects of Hostilities: "Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate: An attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated."
Israel, supported energetically by Washington (and using US-supplied aircraft, bombs and rockets), has caused "incidental loss of life" and general civilian casualties on an enormous scale. The Israeli military and the Israeli people knew full well that their genocidal attack on Gaza would kill civilians. The use of white phosphorous in built-up areas is worthy of the Nazis at their most brutal. Stalin and Mao would nod approvingly. It wasn't considered important that there would be countless civilian deaths. Nobody cares, and least of all American politicians. The next secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, refuses to comment on the atrocities. The incoming vice-president has been silent. President-elect Obama? As Reuters reported : "Obama . . . has not commented on the Middle East crisis since Israel launched attacks on Gaza nine days ago. His advisers insist that only President George W Bush can speak for America until then." But it was noted that "The president-elect has commented on the global economic crisis and his plans to try to pull the US economy out of recession."
Of course he has. And were it not for the power of Israel in America he would no doubt comment adversely on the slaughter in Gaza, because he is a decent man.
But Mr Obama dare not criticize Israel, even for its use of chemical shells. Nor can any American who wishes to enter or remain engaged in politics. The kiss of political death in the United States of America is to censure Israel. It can't be done.
And that is why apartheid is permitted in Israel; it's why the mass-punishment blockade was enforced months before the attack went in; and it's why the near-genocide in Gaza is allowed to continue.
Does anyone remember the hearing on the so-called Israeli-Palestine peace process in the US House of Representatives in February 2007? Of course not. It was a farce. And why was it such a revolting and hideous charade? – Because it was a three card trick.
The main witness, of the three cards who were called, was one Martin Indyk, a former official of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee which is the richest and most powerful lobby group in the country (two of whose members are currently under a mysteriously delayed investigation for spying for Israel). From there, inevitably, he went to be US ambassador in Tel Aviv. (And, incidentally, whose book on the Middle East was the subject of a glowing review in last week's Economist.) Another witness was David Makovsky of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (founded by Indyk; it's all very chummy in pro-Israel sewers), which is funded extensively by American interests that support Zionism. (Among other connections, it is closely associated with the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv University.) And was the third witness a counter-balance to two energetic supporters of Zion? Could he or she present a rather less biased view of the Middle East? Perhaps a person who would make the point that Israel has contemptuously ignored UN Security Council resolutions concerning illegal occupation of Palestinian lands?
Not a bit. The third member was a comic quasi-intellectual character called Daniel Pipes who once declared that Muslim immigrants to the US were "brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and not exactly maintaining Germanic standards of hygiene." (Germanic? – How quaint.) Pipes founded the Middle East Forum (MEF) which encourages university students in America to report lecturers and professors who they consider to be anti-Israel or pro-Palestinian. (In Hitler's Germany there were awards given to young people who identified and reported those they thought to be pro-Jewish; I know a very elderly German lady who did this when she was 15. She is now terribly ashamed at the memory, because she actually informed on her own father. How times change. Or don't, of course.)
In 2006 Pipes was given the 'Guardian of Zion' award, an annual prize to a prominent supporter of Israel, by the Rennert Center for Jerusalem Studies at Bar-Ilan University in Israel.
With a galaxy of partisan propagandists like Indyk, Makovsky and Pipes being the only people selected to give evidence on Israel-Palestine to the nation's legislators in Washington, there was no chance whatever that the Congressional Sub-Committee would be presented with a balanced view of the Israel-Palestine problem. The deck was stacked, and the legislators listened. They had no choice, because of the power of the Israel lobby. They've been shaken and baked.
There is little doubt that the bias towards Israel will continue in the legislature and administration of the United States of America, no matter what Obama might really think, and no matter how many Palestinian children the Zionists have slaughtered. The Israelis are behaving like genocidal filth, but those who stay silent about their atrocities are not far behind in the gutter stakes.
Brian Cloughley's book about the Pakistan army, War, Coups and Terror, has just been published by Pen & Sword Books (UK) and will be published in the US in May by Skyhorse (New York).
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Jan 11, 2009 - 01:44pm PT
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"Hamas, with training from Iran and Hezbollah, has used the last two years to turn Gaza into a deadly maze of tunnels, booby traps and sophisticated roadside bombs. Weapons are hidden in mosques, schoolyards and civilian houses, and the leadership’s war room is a bunker beneath Gaza’s largest hospital, Israeli intelligence officials say.
Unwilling to take Israel’s bait and come into the open, Hamas militants are fighting in civilian clothes; even the police have been ordered to take off their uniforms. The militants emerge from tunnels to shoot automatic weapons or antitank missiles, then disappear back inside, hoping to lure the Israeli soldiers with their fire."
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/world/middleeast/11hamas.html?hp
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:36pm PT
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Israel has the most extreme military advantage imaginable. It's completely inexcusable to use White Phosphorus in a civilian area. It's a torturous weapon of chemical weapon terrorism in that context.
They don't need it. It can't be precisely targeted. It would burn the skin of children slowly to the bone.
it sad to me that folks lamenting over and over regarding the 28 people killed in the entire history of PAl rocket fire become totally silent in the death of 230+ children on the PAL side and use of Chemical Weapons.
Both sides need to feel the pressure
Peace
karl
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:38pm PT
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With, without,
And who'll deny,
It's what the fighting's all about.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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He wrote: "My wife comes from a family which avoided political and religious conflicts of any kind, and she has little tolerance for it, being more interested in patient observation and personal authenticity."
This confuses me. Having litle tolerance for the Israel/Palestinian conflic will surely not lead to a solution, patient observation is now seeming to be a ploy to endorce apathy and cold detachment, and while we might feel ourselves authentic and real in the process, nothing at all changes over there.
So it comes back to the age old question: What to do. Doing nothing IMO is a defalt position that secures our comfort and lets a bad situation get worse. Force doesn't seem to work, less so debate and negotiation.
What's left?
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:22pm PT
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Skip wrote
"What is horrific is the fact that Hamas has set up in civilian areas in the first place. "
What planet are you from bro. Hamas is the elected government in Gaza. ALL of Gaza is a civilian area. Hamas has no planes, tanks, heavy military equipment or stuff like that at all.
So all this talk about Hamas hiding behind civilians and being a purely terrorist organization is plain misinformed. Hamas is a political party. They have no army. They have some militants that launch rockets but it's a small subset of the whole group. It's like asking the Republicans to clear out of civilian areas. If you sealed off Manhattan and asked all the Republicans to leave Manhattan, where would they go?
You have blinders on. There is no ONE group responsible for this.
But answer the question I've asked so many times. How do the Israelis go from having a tiny population of less than 100,000, 100 years ago to owning the vast majority of the country without any violence or blame on their side?
peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jan 11, 2009 - 03:40pm PT
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"Ummm...
The way Mexicans have done so in this country without firing rockets.
To assert that you can only grow your population by imposing yourself militarily is beyond reason. "
So the Mexicans outnumber whites in California now. If they come push you from your home, move you to a closed off area in the Mojave desert, kill a bunch of your friends in the process, and make you carry a special ID card, what will be your reaction?
Peace
Karl
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