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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jun 22, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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Its fun to dissect and discuss but in the end, if you haven't figured out that our government - and I use that term to include BOTH elected parties equally - uses crisis as a platform for motivating the citizens to hand over more control and more money to then to fight real or imagined boogeymen then you really aren't paying attention.
And if it happens as a result of the citizenry fighting against each other while begging the government to "DO Something!", all the better.
It is the cycle that has been repeating itself since, well....actually since the end of alcohol prohibition. You can set your watch by the issue du jour and the resulting hue and cry for government to 'save' us.
Some of you complain about the prospect of a totalitarian regime and don't even realize you're the foot-soldiers.
The same behavior has likely been happening for thousands of years. Probably since we crawled out of the Rift Valley. Power is gained through fear when people are reacting on emotion rather than using what critical thinking skills they may have. An added bonus is few have those skills. We're all subject to it in varying degrees.
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:11am PT
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I like Bill Maher's show and in the video posted by Ksolem he really illuminates the truth about the problems within Islam.
Why the double standard that progressives apply between Islam and Christianity?
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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My point, HFCS, is this: The President's foreign policy is not effected in any way by the nomenclature used to describe the enemy. Are you saying that if Obama started using the term "Radical Islamic Terrorist" that has any particular meaning in practical terms? If so, you couldn't be more wrong.
He knows who the enemy is, as do the military leaders carrying out his policy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:37am PT
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The President's foreign policy is not effected in any way by the nomenclature used to describe the enemy.
But now everyday American politics is. JUst look at the mileage Trump is getting by tapping into this obvious issue.
The pity is that the right-wing of American politics has picked up on the nuances of Islam (religious scholarship and religious realities) and the Left hasn't. And now it's using this nomenclature - it's "hijacked" it - to its benefit.
If we don't get to a place awareness-wise and education-wise in America - and specifically in American politics - where we readily distinguish (1) fundamentalist Islam and/or radical Islam from (2) secular Islam and/or liberal Islam and/or reformed Islam... JUST AS WE ALREADY DO and already have for several generations now in regards to Christianity and Judaism... then if we get hit with another 9/11... a so-called 9/12... say nuclear in the port of Los Angeles... by a group of ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS (aka "extremists" or "terrorists") then the blame and the attacks will be directed against ALL of Islam and ALL Muslims (including the secular and liberal and reformed) instead of where it should be directed - against the violent fundamentalists.
If fundamentalist Christianity anywhere in America or the West were expressing itself the way fundamentalist Islam (radical, extremist, etc.) is American liberal left would be clobbering it. Where is the American liberal left today in its defense of secular Muslims, secular Islamic movements around the world? who are fighting often with their lives to get out from under fundamentalist (radical) Islam? Nothing. Crickets. Where is Ben Affleck? Nothing. Crickets.
Previous page, Crankster, you expressed a dumbfoundedness. I share just as equally this dumbfoundedness. Why the regressive left cannot see the simple analogies between fundamentalist C and fundamentalist I just completely dumbfounds me. (2) And why progressive libs cannot put themselves in the shoes of individual secular Muslims and individual liberal Muslims of the Middle East to see that American liberal defense of (fundamentalist) Muslim culture hurts their cause dumbfounds me.
I guess the only ultimate answer is change is slow.
But I shudder to think if there's a 9/12, all of Muslimhood will be blamed, attacked, and not just fundamentalist Muslims - because of American ignorance and its failure to parse the obvious subgroups both in concept and in language.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:44am PT
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If the President started using the words "Radical Islamic Terrorists"
or whatever combination you guys demand
It would not change a single thing
It's just more whining for whining sake
Here's why liberals don't attack Muslims:
we don't want to attack Minority groups that are already under attack
we complain about Christians because are a majority, and they make laws that affect the Nation in a negative way.
Let the Muslims do their own thing, as long as they don't bother me, I'm OK with them. They haven't done anything here in America that I can complain about.
F*#k the extremists in every religion
I am not afraid of terrorists, they do not affect me,
but they do affect the paranoid and delusional right wingers
and they over react and do stupid things that affect my life
so those are the people that piss me off
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:45am PT
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The President's foreign policy is not effected in any way by the nomenclature used to describe the enemy.
From my point of view this statement is mostly true. However, specific nomenclature IS part of our foreign policy, the purpose of which I believe is two fold: First, to try to mitigate/offset the recruitment strategies of our enemies, and second, to try to stem hate speech and violent actions against muslims here in the U.S.. I can't see where either purposes have been even partially fulfilled.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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If the President started using the words "Radical Islamic Terrorists"
or whatever combination you guys demand
It would not change a single thing
It's just more whining for whining sake
You know, Craig, you're probably the most surprising of all to me.
I know from our history on ALL the religious threads going back years you were the first to distinguish 'Christian extremists' 'Christian fundamentalists' 'Christian fanatics' etc etc etc (from 'liberal Christians') - whether in or out of politics, education, whatever.
Why? Because it was important. On many levels.
Yet somehow you cannot make the obvious analogy re Islam.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:53am PT
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I wasn't finished,
read above
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 08:57am PT
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we don't want to attack Minority groups that are already under attack
Yeah, speaks volumes!
Minority?! Muslim Brotherhood? for example? Hezballah, for example? Hamas for example? Muslim-majority countries? Food for thought.
But I'll have to get back to it. But its narrow-mindedness by my lights is glaring.
Be glad you're not the outspoken scientifically-minded biologist you are in Bangladesh eh?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:00am PT
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The majority of Muslims are peace loving family people
They don't need to have the liberals jumping on the band wagon of hate against them.
We can't control what goes on in other Countries
What about North Korea or China, they got the same problems, right?
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dirtbag
climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:15am PT
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This guy was ostensibly a Muslim, but it's becoming less clear that religion or jihad was a main motive for the attack. He also apparently had some hostility towards Puerto Ricans and gays, and was always apparently very agitated.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:25am PT
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We need Muslims in order to fight terrorists. Why alienate more Muslims by name calling as a form of conservative political correctness, cuz that is all it is. The Orlando shooter was actually reported to the FBI by a Muslim.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:34am PT
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Am I correct fellow liberals?
Radical Christian extremists are more of a problem for America than normal Muslims
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 22, 2016 - 09:35am PT
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Orlando Police Dispatcher: Emergency 911, this is being recorded.
Omar Mateen: In the name of God the Merciful, the beneficent [said in Arabic]
OD: What?
OM: Praise be to God, and prayers as well as peace be upon the prophet of God [said in Arabic]. I wanna let you know, I’m in Orlando and I did the shootings.
OD: What’s your name?
OM: My name is I pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi of the Islamic State.
OD: Ok, What’s your name?
OM: I pledge allegiance to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi may God protect him [said in Arabic], on behalf of the Islamic State.
OD: Alright, where are you at?
OM: In Orlando.
OD: Where in Orlando?
[End of call.]
Less clear, indeed.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:46am PT
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Well, Craig, at least this page has got you using the term 'normal Muslim'.
...
"I like Bill Maher's show and in the video posted by Ksolem he really illuminates the truth about the problems within Islam.... Why the double standard that progressives apply between Islam and Christianity?" Larry
Larry, I don't know your politics but you're exactly right here.
I'm also a big fan of Charlie but how he tried to blur all distinction across Muslims in that piece with Maher was terrible. The PC so thick you could swim in it. Bad Charlie.
I'm glad Bill didn't let him get a PC word in edge-wise.
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c wilmot
climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:48am PT
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Obama refuses to say "radical islamic terrorists" because that is the correct definition for his "rebels" that he has been supporting in their quest for a islamic caliphate in Syria and elsewhere.
which is in clear violation of international law
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:54am PT
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I've said this many times on the religion-related threads: One should be able to address the cancer in Islam problem without always having to address the cancer in Christianity problem in the same sentence or paragraph. Of course the idea always goes over here like a lead balloon. It's perfectly reasonable for Tom and Dick to work towards reform exclusively in C while Mary works toward reform exclusively in I. But apparently many people don't get this.
..
it's becoming less clear that religion or jihad was a main motive for the attack.
dirtbag, does it have to be a "main" problem in the mix before it can be dealt with? Isn't there a basis or justification for dealing with the "minority" components to a systemic problem?
For the record, I have never considered 'fundamentalist Islam' to be the singular "main" component in the (systemic) problem.
Again the black powder explosive is a useful analogy: 10% sulfur (minority component), 15% charcoal (minority component), 75% potassium nitrate (majority component). Removal of any component prevents the explosivity potential. Who doesn't agree here. And yet this common sense reasoning isn't applied in these similar politicized problem solving areas.
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Jun 22, 2016 - 09:59am PT
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Well, Craig, at least this page has got you using the term 'normal Muslim'.
Well played
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 22, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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Well, Escopeta, we are strange bedfellows in this issue.
...
We need Muslims in order to fight terrorists. Why alienate more Muslims by name calling as a form of conservative political correctness, cuz that is all it is. The Orlando shooter was actually reported to the FBI by a Muslim.
This just reeks naivete.
(1) Duh. (2) If it means "alienating" fundamentalists in order to support reformed, secular, liberal, count me in. (3) Hardly. (4) No doubt a more liberal Muslim.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Jun 22, 2016 - 10:03am PT
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I love Bill Maher
I just don't agree with him when it comes to Muslims
He seems overly critical for a comedian
Not that criticism is bad, I just don't agree with it all.
Most of it applies to other countries, which we will never be able to affect, so why worry about it.
If they don't like it, they can try change it, us liberals surely can't
Us liberals can do something about the real Problem, GUNS
we should have had a assault weapons ban in place
and a better back ground check system
We could stop half of these crazies from killing if we had common sense gun control
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