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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 13, 2014 - 07:54pm PT
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Subjective human construct. Always. There can be no absolute good or bad - the concept doesnt' exist without a specific human point of view.
The assumption here is that human constructs have no validity.
That bad things only exist within a human construct is, first of all, ridiculous: they happen within the constructs of all sentient creatures.
Further, the terms bad and good have great meaning simply by virtue of being human constructs. You can't separate the judgements of mind from the nature of the universe as mind is part and parcel to what that universe is.
To say there is no such thing as "bad" because "bad" does not exist beyond human mind experience simply ignores the fact that mind is as much a part of the universe as any other existing thing.
Read Kant and call me in the morning.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 13, 2014 - 08:43pm PT
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no such thing as bad without human subjectivity / like any human construct. no sbsolute bad
the lion is full now. it doesnt eat some else's kids.
this a very simple concept.
get it right and call me in the morning .
of course, scientific constructs can include absolutes. as long as observation sustains them, anyway. bad or good is a contextual opinion, however. you get cancer, and the people of India dont care.
I realize this point is lost on the religious, who require no evidence for their fundamental world view. The universe is what they will it to be, which deifies them in a way (subjectively, anyway), and perhaps that's the most basic need being filled - to be master of your universe.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2014 - 10:45pm PT
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Tvash: . . . scientific constructs can include absolutes. as long as observation sustains them, anyway.
Sorry, no. No one can observe an absolute. Not in a typical empirical sense. You’ll need to go beyond.
I realize this point is lost on the religious, who require no evidence for their fundamental world view.
(Big, warm smile.)
My friend, you’re getting it every moment you see. It may not feel that way if you’re asleep. It all might look as normal as apple pie.
Woo.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 13, 2014 - 11:33pm PT
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WHere IS Tvash, exactly, and what he he really saying. Or more likely, what version of the world and reality is he rooting for, and why?
Look at what M2 said:
We identify the word-map too narrowly with the reality-territory.
A "world-map" is perhaps a description of some thing "out there." A tree, a climb, a lion out to eat my daughters, a pear tree. Obviously my map or description of the lion is not the lion itself, making my description a construct or representation of the lion.
Now the interesting thing here - as has been observed on this thread an throughout the history of thought - is that in the purely material realm, the measurements of some thing (pear tree) contain all the information per what the tree is. If we had the entire data stream per said tree, there would be nothing more, the thinking goes. We could wax for ages on the aesthetics of the tree but we realize we are projecting qualities on the tree that are conjured and fashioned by our being human. An alien from another galaxy might experience the same tree as something totally different. And the "tree itself" the belief goes, would remain the same no matter who or what was experiencing same.
Now we get to the question of WHAT remains the same to all observers. We can't talk about colors, etc. because those are human takes on atoms arrayed at certain wave lengths and so forth. If we reduce right down to the fundamental isness or essence of that tree, beneath all meta constructs, to the basic shizzle itself, something unexpected happens at the bottom of the search.
What seemingly supports all our material constructs is - if we are to believe physics - that which has "no physical extent." So-called material constructs are sourced by or issue from or arise out of that which is not physical in a classical sense. Of course this torpedoes the belief that material and only material is "real," since at the most basic level the bottom falls out of the pale, so to speak, and the reflection of the moon we once saw is simply - not there.
This leads some to say, "What is not subjective?"
PS: And that is not to say that subjectivity "creates" that which is out there, which is simply defaulting back into constructs, back into that pale of water reflecting the moon.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 14, 2014 - 05:53am PT
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we can talk about the speed of light in a vacuum.
objective begins when at least two people who dont know each other do the same experiment and get the same result.
Its pretty amusing watching the religious defend good and bad as if they were gods. Or maybe its just the usual suspects who wouldnt agree with Tvash on anything, ever.
subjective call, i reckon.
gonna climb a mountain, my bitchez. hope its good.
later.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Dec 14, 2014 - 06:33am PT
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still can't tell hows right and if any body is wrong or who has some thing to say and if some are just playing along?
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:28am PT
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being right: good or bad?
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:35am PT
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Nietzsche again.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 07:53am PT
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Good and bad are the dualities of the gross material world.
They exist for the materially conditioned souls, the cintune's,
the Tvash's the HFCS's, the DMT's, the duck's and anyone materially conditioned.
When one acts and is in the consciousness of pure goodness the effects of duality are dissipated, transcending the three modes of material nature.
The three modes of material nature ignorance, passion and goodness.
Only in pure goodness are the effects of duality and karma nonexistent and free will exist there.
Thus the real goal of life is to fix ones consciousness and act in the mode pure goodness.
Easier said then ever done while most of us are usually in the mode of ignorance and passion ........
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Dec 14, 2014 - 09:05am PT
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Tvash, when you say "religious," what do you mean?
I haven't heard much talk about articles of faith, beliefs, or religious doctrine on this thread, nor yet
descriptions of "God," these the standard hallmarks of "religion." If anyone is speaking dogmatically, it apparently would be you, my friend.
Where I think where people take issue with you is in implying that the only real truths are those carried out by strangers doing the same experiences and arriving at the same measurements. All else being so much "good and bad."
Put differently, without instrumentation, and the results of same, we cannot be sure of any truths. Only subjective stuff. Once again, you apparently have dragged us back into scientism, all else being the sketchy realms of the "religious."
Might we call this black and white thinking masquerading as "objectivity."
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2014 - 10:11am PT
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^^^^^^^^^
Sadly, all too often. It’s sometimes a wonder that science moves forward.
(Not exactly noble, is it?)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 14, 2014 - 10:19am PT
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Forward and backward are human constructs.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 14, 2014 - 12:26pm PT
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Forward and backward are human constructs.
i would think these were Hummingbirds constructs before humans
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Dec 14, 2014 - 12:30pm PT
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Consolation often yields serenity.
Merry Christmas!
From a nonbeliever to everybody.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Dec 14, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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HFCS: . . . perception, thought, belief lead to behavior, like the latter they are selected for or selected against.
i jus can't get past this one! What are the traits(phenotypes) of Evolution? How/Why did we grow from dirt&water, to plant, to animal life? Surely we can say the Five Elements(Panchabuta) contain indiviual behaviors. For instance, water, isn't it considered a "Behavior" when water turns to ice because a change in temperature? Water turning to Ice is an "Effect", whereby the "Cause" being the temperature change. So ineffect, the Effect which takes place from a Cause is "Behavior"?
Does the Moon have behavior? i'd say so!? But does it have any perception, thought, beliefs, or learning capabilities? i haven't seen much.
On the other hand Plants, we see them learn. Isn't learning an Effect from some sorta perception, thinking, or beliefs? we certainly see cerebal learned behavior's in monkeys.
So where did the Cause to the Effect(of being a monkey) rise from??
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Dec 14, 2014 - 03:38pm PT
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i would think these were Hummingbirds constructs before humans
Yes, the hummingbird moves forward toward the flower, then backwards away from it. No wonder their science did not go forward, huh?
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2014 - 03:50pm PT
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What seemingly supports all our material constructs is - if we are to believe physics - that which has "no physical extent." (JL)
I think this is a little like your previous interest in Hilbert space, John. I don't think this is anywhere close to being a settled issue in the physical sciences, and is more appropriate for metaphysical contemplation. If I am wrong, let Ed provide an explanation. From what I read measurements are possible down to about 10^-17 cm. What lies below that? Anything? I don't know if we can rule out material substance (whatever that is) or "volume" below that threshold. Or if the expression "material substance" has any meaning in that mysterious realm.
No one can observe an absolute. Not in a typical empirical sense. You’ll need to go beyond (MikeL)
Ok, are you saying we can "observe" an "absolute" if we go beyond the mechanisms of the brain into some non-empirical realm? This cannot be simply by meditating, for that process is itself in the realm of physical electrochemical phenomena. And are you postulating the actual existence of "absolutes"?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 14, 2014 - 03:55pm PT
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This cannot be simply by meditating, for that process is itself in the realm of physical electrochemical phenomena
No it isn't.
Consciousness is not material, never ever is, was or will be.
The root of all meditation and all activities are in consciousness.
Consciousness is the root of the life force and animates matter ......
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Dec 14, 2014 - 04:31pm PT
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No it isn't
Who knows? Wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
Consciousness is not material, never ever is, was or will be
Postulate a universe in which there are no humans or other animals. Would consciousness exist there? I know consciousness is difficult to pin down, but it appears to depend upon physical apparatus for its display. If one says otherwise, consciousness becomes a mystical entity and as such an article of faith . . . only.
Have a nice Xmas, Duck.
;>)
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