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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:20pm PT
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We're looking at a topic, FAs, which will eventually run out.
We'll never run out of words.
Statistically, Old Abe, all "it" ever was is bullsh#t, so not to worry...
And you all should observe carefully that bullshit is a compound word, comprised of "bullsh" and "it."
That's the way I see "it."
No amount of argument will get around bullsh#t.
More Mouse logic available at the Facelift.
" :0) "
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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Climbing slabs fun? Never thought so, just necessary at times.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:25pm PT
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Ron Anderson wrote:
chhhezus... That IS why clean climbing came to be, because we were pounding the shat out of cracks Going from that to placing chocks was THE first move in conservation by climbers other than runout slabs. That was a move FORWARD. .
So what you’re writing is that the FA is more of a guideline than a steadfast rule, that the FA team owns neither the rock nor the route, that it depends, and that the community can come together an decide there’s a better way, right?
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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The ladder argument. If you have a route with 10 bolts. You can climb it and clip all ten, then 9, then 8, then solo it. What is the issue?
If, at his juncture, you genuinely do not understand the "issue," then there is no point in deliberating the topic with you. It'd be like a Tea Party jihadist discussing politics with a Progressive.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:49pm PT
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Jim, I just accept at face value that you were having fun in Patagonia.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:50pm PT
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Damn..go climb a fourteener and look what I'm missing.
I was going to bolt my way but forgot the bit for the drill. :-)
Beautiful day in the mountains, my first fouteener since my heart attack and open heart surgery. Felt great and breathing was smooth and easy.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 24, 2013 - 04:52pm PT
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I'm being a bully on purpose just to stir the hornet's nest. None of this matters anyhow. No one is actually going to go bolt up those museum climbs. This is all just computer valor.
When I climbed a lot the idea that trying to maintain an "elite" standard was bad form would have seemed like heresy. We were trying to maintain the legacy of Yosemite being the Mecca of world rock climbing, against which all other areas and climbs were measured. The notion that we should have fashioned new routes for a kind of Disneyworld that would later come along, where everyone had the same "rights" and had to make no effort to improve, was totally foreign and would have seemed ludicrous.
But there is one thing that really needs to get straight on here. He wrote:
"I’ll ask one more time, why does the argument revolve around a small sliver of run out granitic dome climbs in California to stake the claim that the FA owns the route and the rock?"
Again, and I'll never back down on this point - at the time those routes were first established, the reason to run the rope was to try and maintain a tradition of boldness that ruled the upper end of the trad world at that time. There was no need to claim ownership of any route or any rock. The sanctity and integrity of a given route was assured to be maintained by tradition, not by some blowhard asserting his ownership. This is a new construct pulled out of someone's ass as an excuse to dump tradition. Yes, there were improvements in protection devices and so forth, but the elite routes were allowed to remain the fodder of elite climbers. If this is no longer the case, then go ahead and bolt them up. What's lost in gamesmanship will be won in something. But it won't be sportsmanship or risk management. And when these things go for good, something fine and rare will be lost - of that you maybe sure.
What is being said now, and more power to you for saying it, is that the Disneyworld - family G Rated ideal is more relevant today than the elite ethic practiced 40 years ago. And the solution is bolt up all vestiges of the macho, arrogant, old-school elitism and make the few museum routes out there accessible to the route's rightful owners - toady's climbers. And if someone wants to play the silly macho hero racket because they are insecure and foolish, they can just skip the bolts, right? Isn't that fair for one and all?
Next illogical statement: "Largo, johnkelley, et al, why aren’t you complaining about this disrespect of the FA for routes that were cleaned up, are now climbed clean and are no longer protected by pounding pitons?"
In these instances, stuff was REMOVED from the route to make it more better - like dirt, hummocks, lose rock, etc. And none of these things eliminated the need for risk management, which is the one thing that many modern climbers simply do not want to spend the time to learn. You're suggested update, adding pro, but in no case ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD are people coming clean and admitting their fear, which makes these arguments emotionally dishonest. If someone said, "These routes scare the sh#t out of me and I want more pro," we might go into a meaningful conversation. But when the emotional truth gets hijacked by arguments about FA's claiming ownership and so forth, you can hardly not expect to get razzed when you'e not telling the most basic truth in the first place, and have defaulted out into spurious arguments about elitism
And Mt10910, you're still bumbling your history. On the first One Day Ascent of El Cap, we climbed the first pitches to get them dialed and to leave a few fixed pieces at the pendulum points we expected to encounter in the dark. Except when we actually went for it, the gear we had fixed had since been filched. So again, wherever you get your information, the source has been drinking.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
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JL wrote: No one is actually going to go bolt up those museum climbs. This is all just computer valor.
So right...it hasn't happens yet and more than likely won't happen in the future.
Emotions runs with some of these folks, not logic.
JL wrote: And Mt10910, you're still bumbling your history.
And that of his own country...funny to read.
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:03pm PT
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But only a shameless poser and poultroon (sic) looks to alter the medium itself.
A few honkers may demand rights to screw the gander, but there are much bigger geese who got there first. Contenders need to grow a little and get a bit stronger, otherwise they're just foie gras. Chopped liver.
Yeah, we all own the sand, but you don't own the castle... You just don't have the privilege of rebuilding the castle without rebuke, and methinks thou doth protest too loudly. If you won't do the route in its original form then put in the damned extra pro; just don't expect the community to respect YOUR right to do so. John's got it right; it will not stand.
"...There is instead a seamless web of obligatory connections between past and present generations. These connections are not only unavoidable but absolutely essential for the continuation of civilized society."--Joseph Ellis.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:07pm PT
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Congrats Bob!
Don't worry you can always go back and retro bolt the hard parts for the next tennis shoe ascent. ;)
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:16pm PT
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I see bolt from way up here flying around .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
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. . . maintain the legacy of Yosemite being the Mecca of world rock climbing, against which all other areas and climbs were measured (JL)
... the reason to run the rope was to try and maintain a tradition of boldness that ruled the upper end of the trad world at that time (JL)
The level of conceit here is staggering, but par for the course. There is probably little to worry about; a subculture will always appreciate, protect, and revere these bold achievements, and few will be violated. I'll bet most young climbers will follow Bob D's example.
Memory Fixation Syndrome is not a pretty thing.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:24pm PT
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JL wrote: . . . maintain the legacy of Yosemite being the Mecca of world rock climbing, against which all other areas and climbs were measured.
Really...you are welcomed to your opinions but not your made up facts. You might want to look at what was being done in the Gunks and South Dakota.
Jgill..good to see you on this thread. Hope all is well?
Mt10910..mountains do wonders for your being...I spend as much time as I can walking in them.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:38pm PT
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John Long and Reinhold Messner will never be irrelevant, I hope.
I also hope that some day dueling will be legal again.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:41pm PT
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JL wrote: . . . maintain the legacy of Yosemite being the Mecca of world rock climbing, against which all other areas and climbs were measured.
Really...you are welcomed to your opinions but not your made up facts.
--
So Bob, are you saying that in the 1970s, Yosemite was NOT the Mecca to which all other rock climbing areas were measured?
And John, we attempted to maintain the level RR and others had wrought. It felt like a great adventure to try. Not saying we did so but trying was a great way to spend our youth. Heros? No. But it was a blast thinking we were holding the flag - call it what you will. I don't consider it a bad thing, nor yet something arrogant, to have tried to maintain an elite level of performance. It gave the game special meaning to us when we basically only had ourselves to please.
And MT10910, we actually climbed El Cap in five days and just claimed we did it in a day. All gear was pre-placed. And we had a secret Fairy to do the leading. Clear up your confusion? Now go have another boilermaker.
JL
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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JL wrote: So Bob, are you saying that in the 1970s, Yosemite was NOT the Mecca to which all other rock climbing areas were measured?
Not for free climbing and bouldering...but I could be wrong. :-)
That is for a separate thread.
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:45pm PT
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Largo,
Thanks for responding to my post.
Why do you keep making assumptions about me – how I climb, the risks I willing to take or not take, and my ability to mitigate those risks - based on statements that I have never made in this discussion?
The weekend trad climber that I cross paths with and drink beer with in the California Sierra Nevada does not fit the “Disneyworld family G Rated ideal” that you keep bringing up time and again - and you really are the only one; not one poster making the “FA doesn’t own the rock or route” argument is making the claim that climbing should be a G-Rated Disneyland-like experience. For the life of me I can’t figure out why you won’t admit, or even praise within the confines of this discussion, that those climbing clean – without pitons, a hammer, or a bolt kit – have indeed accepted that risk management is part of climbing.
You wrote:
You're suggested update, adding pro, but in no case ON THIS ENTIRE THREAD are people coming clean and admitting their fear, which makes these arguments emotionally dishonest. If someone said, "These routes scare the sh#t out of me and I want more pro," we might go into a meaningful conversation.
I never suggested adding pro, now you’re the one being dishonest in order to address then castigate an argument I never made. But hey, that’s how things roll on the Internet, so I don’t give a sh#t in absolute terms, but I actually would be into a meaningful discussion and an honest answer.
Thus my question about the acceptability of altering routes by removing pitons and subsequently climbing them clean.
Why not address that?
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DavidRoberts
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:51pm PT
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Arrogance, arrogance and more arrogance.
John, you are like a Christian quoting the bible and expecting it to hold value to a pagan.
I'll say it again, we are not all playing the same game. I agree that you pushed the envelope. In your game, you moved the bar higher. From all that are playing your game, you get much respect. Personally, I have great respect your climbing accomplishments. Others people that climb are not trying to attain elite climbing status. Others just climb for fun. For you to suggest that they don't have the same right to the rock as you is ludicrous.
You drilled the rock to match your ability, and yet you decry anyone adding bolts as sacrilege, as an affront to the natural order. Get over yourself, hypocrite. You made a career out of promoting climbing to the masses, and now you writhe and rant about those same masses encroaching on your private playground. You demand that they respect your authority, arrogantly expect that all should play by your rules. Sorry, that is not the way it works. You play your game in the public domain. You do not get special rights just because you were there first or because you are the baddest climber around. Everyone gets to make their own choices.
If you want that dialogue with fear, the opportunity to confront your limits and risk death. it is always there. Honnald and other soloists do it every day. I don't hear them crying about the bolts taking away from the experience. Everything short of a barefoot and chalkless ascent is a compromise, and no one has the right to tell a climber what compromises she should make.
Not everyone that climbs is playing the same game. Both groups need to get along. I find it sad that such an accomplished climber and world traveler cannot step past his dogma to see that there are people out there that look at the world (and climbing) in a different way.
David Roberts,
Alpine, CA
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Degaine
climber
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Ron Anderson wrote:
Nope, not even close. Im saying that A) Save the rock is still important and B) that we did not further ALTER those routes when we went to chocks.
Of course the routes and the FA experience were altered when the pins were pulled. You're not really trying to claim that a route like Compressor route wasn't altered when the bolts were recently chopped, are you?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 24, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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David Roberts wrote: Not everyone that climbs is playing the same game. Both groups need to get along. I find it sad that such an accomplished climber and world traveler cannot step past his dogma to see that there are people out there that look at the world (and climbing) in a different way.
Wonderful post and thanks for hitting the nail on the head.
Fear and control = stagnation.
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