Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 04:50pm PT
|
True. Guns don't kill people. AMERICANS kill people. The gun fetish is just a symptom of the uber-violent culture.
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
|
Silly Jody, gun control is all our laws regarding guns. Like laws about conceal carry, registration, background check, banned assault weapons, etc. We have gun control laws in CA, yet shockingly, private citizens are allowed guns. Funny, as a CHP officer you should know that.
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
|
Jody - no one is arguing that all 300 million American guns should be confiscated, and I would have no idea how to do it either. On a more neutral subject, here is one of the best articles I've ever read about crime and punishment:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/01/30/120130crat_atlarge_gopnik
It takes a while to get to the point, but its basically that the best strategy to reduce crime is to make it hard to commit. Not to punish people afterwards. If a particular streetcorner is a place people sell drugs, put a police car there. I would apply this theory to gun violence - make it hard to get guns, then instead of blowing away his wife, the gun owner has to chase her around with a kitchen knife and she might just get away. If a person under psychiatric care buys 4000 rounds of ammo and numerous guns within a couple months, you investigate. Of course the same argument could be made, the civilians with guns deters crime, but I just don't think it compensates for the gun violence itself.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
|
DPMS Jody?
|
|
monolith
climber
albany,ca
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
|
In my nearly 24 years in LE I have met hundreds of officers from many different agencies and I would probably be able to count on one hand the number who oppose guns in the hands of private citizens. People who say LE is in favor of gun control are lying.
Gun control does not mean banning all guns in the hands of private citizens. Got it now Jody?
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 06:33pm PT
|
Geez would you guys quit whining. We already have gun control.
If you say we need more gun laws, please be specific, cuz just saying "we need more gun control" doesn't mean anything.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
|
After you put a good upper on that DPMS price out some 168gr match rounds Jodester.
I'm sure a big guy like you can handle the recoil, but I bet you still cry when you shoot it. lol
Remember Chris Rock saying, "I'd shoot your azz if bullets weren't $5,000.!"
|
|
Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
|
Check out Adam Gadan, the American al Qaeda, in this Bill Moyers video. He explains how easy it is to get guns in the US to commit terrorist attacks. http://vimeo.com/46119347
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:08pm PT
|
Huh, Jody?
I was talking ammo cost.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
|
I have brought up the 10 round clip limit over and over on this thread. This thread is going due to the CO guy so I'd imagine we should be talking about laws that may reduce the loss of liife in those situations. As I said keeping handguns away from criminals is more important in terms of saving lives but it doesn't seem to be what this thread is about.
So far there are two responses to the low cap clip limit. 1 you have to reload more often. Not a good reason if it means even 1 life is saved. And 2 you don't want to be outgunned by e bad guys. But I would imagine its very very rare that having a high cap clip would do you any good. Most home invasions or robberies aren't going to be done by a guy with a machine gun. So the question is does that super rare instance where a high cap clip would do you any good outweigh the loss of life when you have millions more of the high cap clips floating around where bad guys will eventually get their hands on them.
For handguns the question is does having more restrictions such as hand guns must be registered you must complete a hand gun safety course etc reduce the number of hand guns that end up in the hands of bad guys or does it reduce accidents or other shootings?
Basically should the more restrictive laws of California be applied nationwide?
Has it helped in California? Do cities in states with more restrictive gun control have less shootins or crime tha other similar cities I other states?
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
|
Fet,
I'm in the "accuracy trumps caliber" school (even though I shoot the most lethal pistol round, the 45acp).
But a hi-cap box magazine is NOT high technology.
It is garage workshop technology.
That means any bad guy can make one.
And I think that the playing field should at least be level (actually it should favor a homeowner).
I already cited the lack of clip grips on pajamas, and the nightstand Gl 35 utility, but lets face it, in extreme duress some civilians are not very good shots.
They don't fall back on training because they don't train.
They don't assume a proper stance.
They flinch and jerk their shots.
Just look at convenience store robbery footage.
It is not surprising that they miss, it is surprising that sometimes they score hits.
Do I think that is good?
No.
Wild shots are bad. Keep yer head down.
But civilians dead because their stupid 10 round clips empted in a gun that normally hold 17 is lamer.
As for the extended ultra-hi-cap mags;
they adversely affect accuracy
they can't be carried concealed
they are often more likely to jam
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
|
You realize that even in California, the bad guys still carry hi cap mags right? The only thing the laws have done is keep them out of the hands of the law abiding citizens.
Or, forced those otherwise law abiding citizens to buy them out of state or on the black market.
How have the drug laws worked out? Are they keeping anyone from getting drugs?
Where there is a will, there is a way.
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:47pm PT
|
(even though I shoot the most lethal pistol round, the 45acp) Last time I checked the CHP stats would seem to imply that the .40 S&W is actually deadlier.
But it does seem counter intuitive.
EDIT:"I'm using the one-shot-stops data" that's what the CHP uses too.
I'll have to check to see what the latest data shows.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
|
I'm using the one-shot-stops data compiled (granted, in the early '90s) by Massage Aboob.
Glad to hear that my 35 can deliver (according to CHP), but I got a thaaaang fer my 1911.
Kachunk
Kachunk
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 07:58pm PT
|
Fet said,
Not a good reason if it means even 1 life is saved. Why do we need Porsche's etc that go 150 miles an hour? Who needs to go that fast?
What about restricting cars to only 40 miles an hour and no more than 100hp...
Is that a good idea? Or is it too much restrictions your freedom?
I guarantee you that would save more than just 1 life.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
|
In the case of the Arizona shooting in which Gabrielle Giffords was shot, at least one person in the audience who was carrying a concealed weapon did not open fire on the shooter, for the very good reason that the security that was there had no idea who he was, and in the confusion, wasn't going to ask for id...
this complication, figuring out who the good guys are and who the bad guys are adds yet another complication to the fantasy of self defense that seems to be running rampant here... who do you shoot? it doesn't matter how many rounds you have if you don't know who is supposed to receive them.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
|
That guy in Arizona defended himself. Didn't he?
That's the name of the game; self defense. Not making arrests, or making the world safe for democracy. It's defense of the individual - by the individual.
I can't help it if nobody else takes the trouble to arm themselves, because in an emergency, I have my hands full just saving my own ass!
( which is why in almost all of my armed encounters, I either ran away, hid, or both )
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
|
you didn't need a hand gun to do that...
|
|
Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
|
this complication, figuring out who the good guys are and who the bad guys are adds yet another complication to the fantasy of self defense that seems to be running rampant here... who do you shoot? it doesn't matter how many rounds you have if you don't know who is supposed to receive them.
If your not sure, you don't shoot. It's not complicated.
Much more complicated is the situation that the police face.
They get a call of shots fired, show up on scene and have to try and figure out who is the threat, and try not to shoot the guy pulling out his cell phone.
Someone who is on scene when the shooting started, is going to have a much easier time figuring out who the bad guy is and probably would be an eye witness to the bad guy actually shooting at someone.
To say the correct answer is to never shoot back seems to say that it's better to err on the side of extreme caution even if that means people are continuing to be murdered.
Edit: What Chaz said...I couldn't agree more.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Jul 29, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
|
Dr Hartouni writes:
"you didn't need a hand gun to do that... "
True.
But if I had known in advance which problem would require a firearm and which wouldn't, I wouldn't even think about employing a handgun.
I'd have used a rifle instead!
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!