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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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LOL, "BITD"!
Eliot, you're not old enough to use that word! Santee was just yesterday...2007!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Chris baffled me last year and I want more!
um, ok, but you might want to try some lube next time. and i'm guessing folks would appreciate it if you'd stop dropping names into this cesspool..
before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honor is humility. proverbs somethingorother.
Actually, I could care less about my "street cred".
back in the garage with my bullshit detector.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility." - Proverbs 18:12
Looks as if we're both using the KJV...good choice!
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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actually gary, i'm digging into the niv right now. it's like being back in f*#king college. for the psalms i prefer the kjv. i'm also getting all oldschool with j. vernon mcgee. he declares that genesis and matthew are the most important books. i'm more of a john type myself: first person singular, ftw.
but i STILL think you need to throttle back and chill for awhile.
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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"Chris baffled me last year and I want more!"
"watch others, like Eliot, Doug, et al, crank'em out"
And you actually commented like that using Chris' name Bob?
"Throttle back"?
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Careful with that NIV Bob, something like 64,000 words deleted from the KJV.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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And you actually commented like that using Chris' name Bob?
OH HELL YEAH. C4 much, gary?
this thread needs less bullshit and more pics.
crazy-assed-bitch on robbins, 1985:
well, is it?
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deepnet
Boulder climber
San Diego
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the last time I talked to Bachar, He said, John long told him that
Peter Croft overheard Lynn Hill say...
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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We're gonna need some more ROCKBOB cartoons to sort though this mess.
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Horvath
Trad climber
CA
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Woooo wheee! its getting firey on here.
Anyway, I know everyone's got a hard on for this "projjjjj" but who wants to get on Mosh Pit? and for that matter VP's Office? Should be going this weekend if anyone is interested.
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Doug Tomczik
climber
Bishop
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Wow.
Climbing and woodson are both very personal matters to me, so much that the two can’t be separated. My friends and I have spent vast amounts of life on that hill – no doubt the same for many people on this thread. (I don’t remember the last time I walked down the road when it wasn’t dark…it’s standard for our crew to collectively be there 6 or 7 days a week. ) That’s why it’s been really cool to have this forum that bridges the gap and unites climbers between past and present. An internet commonplace for dialogue, nostalgia, and psych is unique to woodson and something only possible through modern technology. At times I forget that this thread isn’t just a bunch of people that love woodson and that it is open to the public. (example: who are you goatboy smellz?)
To be honest, I was almost disappointed when I first saw the climb. It looked too easy. After getting Fade to Black second try and watching Eliot the past 3 months NEVER get shut down, I was hoping that this thing would be something that took some effort. Luckily it does, and the coolest part for me has been the process of working the moves with Eliot and having to believe that it’s possible. Once it gets climbed, and it doesn’t matter by who, part of that organic process of discovery will be gone.
My feelings are that we shwacked to re-find the line. We put in the imagination to learn the sequences. However, at the same time, rock is open to everybody. I have nothing against Chris; he was really nice when I met him and I’d be psyched to climb with him again. The issue is, Gary, your sudden interest alongside BVB’s, Eliot’s, and my revival of the climb. Given the temporal proximity of Eliot and I working the line and you offering it to others, your actions don't seem like a random coincidence. If you have known about this crack for years, why do you want somebody to tick it all of a sudden? If you are looking for first ascent lines that I have scoped or tried, I can show you plenty - far and near the road. You might be surprised at how painless some of the approaches are.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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The issue is, Gary, your sudden interest alongside BVB’s, Eliot’s, and my revival of the climb.
EXACTLY.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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Gary, you are absolutely correct about the non proprietary nature of information. What to do with information one holds is strictly up to that individual, and whether its shared or withheld and to what effect is not a matter of right or wrong, its a matter of perrogative. Theres nothing wrong with you telling Chris or anybody else what you know.
There is more to this issue than information, however. Obviously more than one person knew of this unclimbed crack. Bob went public with this information, which was no different than Gary telling Lindner about it.
At this point everything was words, and talk is cheap. When people acted on this information then reality became a factor. Talking and knowing about something is one thing, thrashing blindly through dense brush with only vague directions is quite another. Eliot and company put some hard time and effort into locating this thing, and that is an investment that only they have made at this time. I understand and completely identify with Eliots rant. The work he has invested in this climb gives him the right to rant, and i thought he stated his case well. I wouldnt appreciate someone directing a gunslinger to my project right after i had broken trail to it.
Gary can say he did no wrong by telling Lindner about this crack, and he would be correct. The accepted rules of our sport say that any line left unclimbed is fair game. Courtesy, however, would dictate otherwise. Would Gary have called Lindner at this particular time, to tell him about this particular route if there had been no posting about it? A route he says he has known about for years? Not a chance. It comes down to intent, and while intentions are a matter of the heart which cant be proven or disproven, the circumstances make it pretty easy to deduce. It may not stand up in a court of law, but it seems obvious that ulterior motives came into play.
Maybe the rules say that you can give away somebody elses project, but that doesnt make it right. Some respect for the work it took to uncover this line, and the courtesy to leave the decision as to how and when it will be publicized to those who have invested their time and effort into its development is not mandatory, but it is the considerate thing to do.
As far as unnamed sources, why even bother? Ones imagination is an unnamed source. Unattributed information is gossip, period. The only reason for not divulging a source is because it is not credible. Tell us the name of this Woodson authority, Gary. Is this person too sketchy to be vetted by those who know woodson and its climbers? Anonyminity precludes legitimacy.
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goatboy smellz
climber
Nederland
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At times I forget that this thread isn’t just a bunch of people that love woodson and that it is open to the public. (example: who are you goatboy smellz?)
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2011 - 10:37pm PT
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Wow is right. That was a bit of a twist. Some of the most recent posts sum things up quite nicely.
I certainly enjoyed the entire sequence of the problem being found, and was only able to do that because of a public forum. Unfortunately, a public forum can also open the door to other things as well. It's too bad if people have to lose out on hearing about current events at Woodson, and corresponding with those making it happen, because it has to be kept secret to avoid being snaked.
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gonamok
climber
dont make me come over there
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But hasnt it always been that way Henny? You cant stop people from working your project if they know about it, and theres nothing wrong with them doing that. As soon as you walk away from an unclimbed line its up for grabs, so its send or keep it quiet till you do. We used to keep entire areas secret until we had worked everything we could manage, then wed bring in a hot guy like epps or MP to do the hard ones we couldnt get, THEN it went public. If somebody stumbled on it and cranked everything before we could, more power to em.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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u gotta be kiddin. i know they say the 80s are back, but this is just sad.
KJV?
Luther/Emse:
Iche hebe meinen Augen aufe zu den Berge
von welchen mir Hilfe kommt
NUEVO REPRESENT!
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
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Yes Ron, it has always been that way. Still, a little courtesy would be nice. I thought your post(s) as well as Doug's stated things well. The thread has/had, for the most part, been one of mutual support, encouragement, and sharing. Some consideration would be nice given the circumstances under which (this thread) the problem was re-discovered. Maybe that would be asking too much on a public forum though. Then again, I do agree that on the bottom line nobody actually broke any laws, or did anything new.
I do know about secret areas/problems and all that stuff. There's a good reason for it at times, I even have one right now - who doesn't. I decided not to go into it though because I didn't want to put everybody to sleep. (and no, your post wasn't boring because you taked about it, but mine probably would have been.)
Same as it ever was.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Let us now draw the curtain of Charity across this scene, and hope that common sense, honesty, and courtesy prevail. We'll sit back and see what happens.
I am SO ready to crush the Woodson V1+ circuit this month!
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