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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 15, 2016 - 08:28am PT
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There wouldn't be a West without the bible, dork.
Blue, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment were more in spite of the church rather than because of the church.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 08:43am PT
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One needs to be willing to think outside the religious pov. Clearly some (even, alas, atheists) are not willing to do this. Else not able.
Their loss. All the rest just need to move on - realizing that there will always be holdbacks, clowns, miktoasts, dorks and dinguses in any multitude and you can only assist them to a point.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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"Every crisis is an opportunity to change the system, to change direction."
"Things can change. Things do change."
Damn straight.
just don't let the milquetoasts, dorks and dinguses get in the way. e.g., with their inane, stupid, bland slogans like this...
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Yeah, never mind the absence of talking snakes, flying horses and virgins awaiting martyrs... or death to apostates, adulterers, blasphemers... or patriarchy or fgm or stem cell prohibition.
Where it appears, the challenge is to recognize ignorance compounded by arrogance and prejudice and not let it impede you.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 15, 2016 - 10:51am PT
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Yeah, never mind the absence of talking snakes, flying horses and virgins awaiting martyrs... or death to apostates, adulterers, blasphemers... or patriarchy or fgm or stem cell prohibition.
Christianity was, until the 18th century, the primary creative force in the West. Reading it as the above quote is just plain silly. Religion's influence has been critical to Western development even through the enlightenment: ask yourself why Washington DC is filled with Greek and Roman temples? The idea that the only thing standing in the way of scientific progress was religious belief is ridiculous. From Michelangelo to Caravaggio to Rembrandt, religion has inspired some of the greatest artworks ever produced, why? Religion has something to say way beyond talking snakes.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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May 15, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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...religion has inspired some of the greatest artworks ever produced... Only because if you didn't announce the glory of God they burned you at the stake as a heretic
Can you imagine what the Vatican would have done to Michelangelo, had he proclaimed that Jesus was not his inspiration, and God had nothing to with his talent? Like a good Christian, the Pope would have had Michelangelo killed.
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Norton
Social climber
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May 15, 2016 - 11:07am PT
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Fructose
thanks for posting the Janna Levin, astrophysicist video
just watched it all, great
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 15, 2016 - 11:32am PT
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Only because if you didn't announce the glory of God they burned you at the stake as a heretic
Do you really imagine that Michelangelo's Pieta is a product of his fear of heresy? Or do you think he was inspired by faith? The idea that the only reason everyone isn't a scientist historically is that they feared the church is nonsense.
Renaissance artists did much in the way of irreligious art as well and justified it through Neo-Platonic philosophy. Veronese justified his work before the inquisition as simply artistic license.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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May 15, 2016 - 11:37am PT
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The Pope nearly killed Michelangelo because he didn't paint fast enough (while he painted the roof of the Sistine chapel)
And it's not religion, it's the institution, power and money... the church...
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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May 15, 2016 - 11:46am PT
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The Catholic Church, although guilty of sins against humanity like the inquisition and suppression of native cultures, is today in some respects far more supportive of science than the protestant religions. Evolution is accepted, even supported by the CC, while the same theory is ridiculed by many protestants in the midwest and deep south. The Jesuits in particular are devoted to reason and critical thought in a great many scientific venues, even though their bond with the spiritual aspect of the Church is strong.
Just a musing.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 12:50pm PT
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Norton, glad you enjoyed it.
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And it's not religion, it's the institution, power and money... the church...
Apparently you and I define "religion" very differently then.
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With CHRISTIAN CHURCH approval, Giordano Bruno... burned at the stake... alive, naked, upside down, and with his "tongue imprisoned" so it couldn't blaspheme. 2. Moreover, and I am pretty sure it was all to the market square's entertainment.
That's a reason I persist. (Despite the milquetoasts, dorks and dinguses.) The CHRISTIAN CHURCH murdered someone I consider a kindred spirit.
If it were up to me, every jr high kid would learn in school about the life and times of Giordano Bruno.
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You don't see this everyday...
http://www.facebook.com/876630299082863/videos/1026081824137709/
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 15, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
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If it were up to me, every jr high kid would learn in school about the life and times of Giordano Bruno.
Yes, and you could see that they're taught about St. Francis as well. Or how about St. Lawrence or any number of Christians murdered by the state of Rome for what were essentially civil reasons. People kill people largely for issues of power, they don't need religion. You could make the argument that many more were saved by religion than victims of it.
It's interesting that in the Stanza della Signatura in the Vatican, painted at the same time Michelangelo was working on the Sistine Ceiling, Raphael painted the School of Athens, a celebration of reason and rational thought paid for by the Pope.
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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May 15, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
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So, best case scenario... it's still baby vs. bathwater.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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May 15, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
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Don't forget that Islam help preserve science and mathematics during the Dark Ages.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 15, 2016 - 04:32pm PT
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^^^^You beat me to it!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 04:58pm PT
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You beat me to it!
That's ridiculous. jgill I get but you Mark? Really?
;>(
(1) It was Arab culture that was the conduit, Arab culture that btw was mostly Islamic in religion.
(2) Many lately have recognized this Arab and Arabic conduit has been grossly over exaggerated mostly by sympathizers. Tyson's mentioned it at least twice in his talks, you should give a listen.
Why not require of yourself a bit more accuracy.
Point to me in the Quran or Hadith any precepts or encouragements to preserve ancient knowledge or method re how the world works that's of a science nature. You won't find it.
Accuracy matters. It was Arab culture and Arabic, it was not Islam.
PS and why the exclamation? Was this repeat of an inaccuracy really that exciting or dramatic?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 05:49pm PT
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Okay, here's your way out.
I mean if want to be loosey goosey with the language, go for it.
"The term Islam refers either to the religion of Islam or to the Islamic civilization that formed around it."
but it is quite loosey goosey at least to anyone who spends considerable time in the subjects. You might as well call a crescent wrench a pliers then. Or concrete cement. Or a rim a ring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_in_the_medieval_Islamic_world
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I should just shut up and let Sean Carroll (physicist/cosmologist) do the work...
"It's easy, and wrong, to think of scientific truths as fixed and absolute. It's also easy, and just as wrong, to act as if we know nothing and everything is up for grabs. We have a responsibility to do the hard work of figuring out exactly where the dividing line between knowledge and uncertainty lies, and take seriously what we do know."
http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2016/05/15/478143589/fear-of-knowing
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 15, 2016 - 06:25pm PT
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HFCS, You appear to be looking at Islamic culture of the Middle Ages prejudiciously. It was a much more dynamic and flexible creature than the Islamic fundamentalism of today and not all Muslims today are fundamentalists.
It doesn't seem that your reference quite made the point you were trying to make.
I have had the pleasure of knowing a good number of Muslim faithed folks over the years. Of those I've known, none were fundamentalists. The group that I became closest to were devout Iranian Shia muslims. Some of them were Sufi. Among them were physicians, an attorney, electrical engineers, and a professor of mathematics. I have deeply enjoyed our conversations over the years in poetry, literature, philosophy, natural sciences, art, psychology, politics, and religion, including mysticism.
And, yes, I am still of the opinion that atheism is a religion.
"It's easy, and wrong, to think of scientific truths as fixed and absolute. It's also easy, and just as wrong, to act as if we know nothing and everything is up for grabs. We have a responsibility to do the hard work of figuring out exactly where the dividing line between knowledge and uncertainty lies, and take seriously what we do know."
This is awesome! Ideally, I delight in the world becoming continually new I revise my understanding of the world based on new evidence.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 15, 2016 - 07:00pm PT
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Mark
(1) the issue at point was "Islam", not Islamic culture or Islamic civilization, where I tried to encourage a higher standard of accuracy in the conversation.
(2) you appear to be interpreting "Islamic culture of the middle ages" from a highly selective bubble. For a more balanced POV, I'd suggest a recent podcast by David Gregory. Sam Harris is the guest.
http://www.earwolf.com/show/the-david-gregory-show/
(3) fyi, as I've mentioned before here, my undergraduate courses and classroom and dormitory days in electrical engineering bristled with Muslims from Iran (1978-79) nice enough and rich enough and liberal enough (!) to come to learn in America and yet who were also fundamentalist, believing in a 6,000 year old earth, rejecting whole swathes of science, believing in creation, believing their holy book was written by God Himself by way of Mohammad and an angel; ready to smite the infidel; believing there's no better way to die in this world than in the defense of their faith.
"It doesn't seem that your reference quite made the point you were trying to make."
I believe it did. Did you understand the follow-up points? If you want to be loosey-goosey in the conversation that is up to you.
Cement is not concrete. Nucleotides are not amino acids. A crescent wrench is not a pliers. U or Pu radiation is not a radio wave.
But it is up to you.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 15, 2016 - 07:07pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science#Science_in_the_Middle_Ages
science somehow persisted, and even thrived, in the presence of religious works like the Quran and the Bible which were central religious authorities... it is overly simplistic to assign a modern view of Islamic history (as interpreted by HFCS for instance) as "Truth" throughout the history of Islamic civilization.
History is much more complex then some of these cartoonish characterizations.
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