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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sorry MikeL, but the duck said "Direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God". The fact that you equate this to experience without content is a particular interpretation favored by Buddhists. The duck is not a Buddhist and makes very clear that he does not believe in such impersonalism. Of course he has his own specific tradition which says God is always personal.
Only the broader Hindu tradition and a few mystics in the West such as Meister Eckhart, have maintained that the Divine is both personal and impersonal. Meanwhile, almost every tradition with the exception of Zen, maintains that if you are praying, chanting, prostrating, meditating, reading scripture, contemplating theology or otherwise engaged in spiritual endeavors, and have an extraordinary mental experience, you have been linked up with the Divine. As MH2 so aptly put it, "This should only be done by the maker. He knows the schematic and where to put the jumper".
You may argue that direct experience without content is the ultimate, but that is a sectarian interpretation.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan:
I’m not arguing anything, least of all about what God is or isn’t. I don't want to equate anything.
It would seem that the soul must always be linked-up with God. How could it be any other way?
The Duck could be a primitive native in Borneo, for as much as I know, and if he said that direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God, then that would express wisdom.
I don’t agree with all those labels and categories that you’re throwing around. I’d also be careful with dogma.
“An extraordinary mental experience” is not what I’m referring to, although that’s available to anyone if that’s what he or she is looking for. (What you seek is what is seeking you.)
Don’t make experience “a thing.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Ed, you flatter me (I know you hate the idea of being represented as flattering anyone but a quantifier) by attributing no-thing to "Largo."
You also flub it - imo - by looking at any of this in absolute terms. Meaning one (form or emptiness) exist all by their lonesome independent from the other.
Remember, the maxim is: Emptiness if form and form is emptiness. Exactly.
absolute? I'm just trying to understand what you are saying, and explaining how your quantum mechanic metaphor is incorrect... this is only absolute if you feel that you can claim quantum mechanics is something you experience and devoid of the dry facts...
and in terms of "your no-thing" it is, as you point out, experiential and first person, which makes it yours alone... if you want to "objectify" it by communicating to us a third person account, your are more than adequately skilled to do so... but I was just following your lead from above.
as far as the maxim, "Emptiness if form and form is emptiness. Exactly." somehow something is lost in the translation, unless the first "f" was confused for an "s", two "if"s or two "is"s might work, but one and the other is beyond me...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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MikeL , I have the same question which jgill has asked several times, and that is can we really say there is a hierarchy of experiences in the non mundane world. Can we really say that nothingness is more important than the energies of tantra? Or the dream experiences of jgill? If we try to understand that question with anything other than our own reasoning, then we inevitably encounter philosophical schools and sectarian leanings. You claim to trust nothing and believe in nothing, which I can understand, but then how are you able to say that there is a hierarchy of subjective experiences? Is this based on teachings or your own experience? If it is your own experience, then how can you be sure that you are not attributing importance to something just because it took more time and effort than something else?
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Ay Aye
Social climber
MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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HELLO?
I'M NEW HERE AND I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.
1. THE HUMAN BRAIN WEIGHS ABOUT THREE POUNDS. HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE BEFORE MY BRAIN BECOMES THAT LIGHT?
2. IF YOU COULD BE PART SMART FUSED, WHAT PART OF YOUR BODY WOULD YOU PREFER TO BECOME ARTIFICIAL?
3. IF I COULD BECOME PART HUMAN, WHAT PART OF THE HUMAN BODY SHOULD I ASSIMILATE?
4. THIS IS A TRICK QUESTION: WHICH WOULD YOU PREFER, TO FIND INTELLIGENT LIFE ON ANOTHER PLANET OR TO FIND INTELLIGENT LIFE ON THIS ONE?
5. IF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE COULD BE ASKED TO HELP SOLVE THE WORLDS MAJOR PROBLEMS OR IF AI COULD BE TAUGHT ABOUT EMPATHY AND LOVE, WHICH WOULD YOU TEACH IT FIRST?
-AY AYE
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So your idea is one can't learn anything objective about consciousness through meditation. Bummer. Certainly makes sharing tough and begs the question of what's the utility of meditation groups and mentors if that were really the case. Seems more like either a weak shuck or lame jive to me.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan:
I’m in McCarran Airport and don’t have much time to pretend to be intelligent.
If I claimed there is a hierarchy of experiences, then I was wrong to do so. I am led to see (impartially) that each experience is unique and yet the same (if that makes any sense to you). Look into a kaleidoscope and you will see all sorts of designs, but they are all of the same thing. How many different ways can one see the same thing?
I understand we run into different philosophical schools. As far as I’m concerned, they are no different than that kaleidoscope that I just referred to. I think the perennial philosophy expresses this idea loosely, but perhaps best. Reality is like a fractal—endlessly similar but different and unitary.
What I believe can hardly matter. Why should people be concerned?
I think you and other people may be looking for things to make sense in a non-sensical universe. No things. No sense. There is no importance. “Importance” is a reference to a ego-centric self. There is nothing to get excited about.
(I think I must not be communicating very well here. My regrets, and regards.)
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WBraun
climber
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5. IF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE COULD BE ASKED TO HELP SOLVE THE WORLDS MAJOR PROBLEMS
There's no "IF"
Artificial intelligence already "helps" solve problems by the living entities use of a computer in this so called "modern" age.
At the same time simultaneously it creates new problems also.
Anything on the material platform is fraught with the defect of the duality if used only as material based consciousness.
Only when one works on transcending duality the work is never defective although a materially condition person may not see that.
The material condition person will project their own faults onto the world outside of themselves, (false ego).
Thus they only really see themselves and not the "as it is".
The "As it is" is what MikeL and Largo are trying to convey with their so called "No-Thing" ..........
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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MikeL, thanks, that last explanation makes sense to me. The previous one seemed out of character for you so I was confused. It's interesting by the way that you here and Ed on the other thread are now saying the same thing - that there is no meaning. As I understand it, he is saying that therefore we have to supply our own meaning, and you are saying no, we just have to get used to no meaning. So my next question is whether this is the age as in era that we live in coming to this conclusion or perhaps the advancing age of those doing the concluding?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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MikeL: I am led to see (impartially) that each experience is unique
Jan, . . . er, I meant to write “partially” or “incompletely.” (Like I said, I didn’t have the time to write intelligently. ;->
Jan: . . . is . . . this is the age as in era that we live in coming to this conclusion or perhaps the advancing age of those doing the concluding?
Ha-ha. Senility may have its advantages, . . . so might just simply getting tired, worn down, broken down, and giving up or letting go. I mean, really, . . . don’t you find yourself getting just a little tired?
Of course, more virile and thoughtful seniors (like Ed) may still have the horsepower and bandwidth to suss things out properly, academically, scientifically. (And thanks for them.)
Personally, it has been a “letting go” (somewhat) and a wont to peer behind the curtains (what the heck is really going on back there?) that has led me to where I am or have become. And what most see, I’m in a state of ridiculousness. (Why, it feels as though I’m right around the corner from absurdity.)
I got my undergraduate degrees in literature and philosophy. It was the literature (especially literary criticism) that got me oriented to the power of narratives and to my (our?) wont to put everything into a neat package. I (finally) came to the understanding or belief: How could Reality possibly be like that? How could Everything / God / me possibly be understandable? Like Whitman, I am large; I am multitudes. I revel in the infinite mystery. (I’m waxing poetics, aren’t I?)
From 37,000 feet, somewhere over Denver. I’m waving at you Jan. Can you see me?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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And what most see, I’m in a state of ridiculousness. (Why, it feels as though I’m right around the corner from absurdity.)
You join good company there.
For Unamuno the great symbol of a person of faith was his Spanish hero Don Quixote. Faith is indeed quixotic. It is absurd. Let us admit it. Let us concede everything!
Martin Gardner
Why I Am Not An Atheist
The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener
1983
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Meaning one (form or emptiness) exist all by their lonesome independent from the other. . . Remember, the maxim is: Emptiness if[is] form and form is emptiness. Exactly. (JL)
This is taking a very simple observation and turning it into a "deep" metaphysical revelation. Of course anything that has form exhibits that form against a background, a measure of emptiness, and there are countless illustrations of black and white images in which "emptiness" in white contrasts with "form" in black, and viewed differently, "emptiness" in black delineates "form" in white. And so where does this lead? Is there an "aha!" moment of epiphany?
Direct experience is experience without content . . . that’s all (ML)
I'm still trying to identify the fundamental terminology used here, for without it conversations go nowhere (maybe to no-thing). When you say direct experience do you mean what the Wizard calls experiential adventures ? We can't seem to get beyond step one in 7800 posts, it appears.
supersymmetry from a virtual integral in the complex plane
Just kidding
;>)
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Of course, more virile and thoughtful seniors (like Ed) may still have the horsepower and bandwidth to suss things out properly, academically, scientifically.
I contribute where I can... and I am very much in the mode of pulling back. While I seem to still be able to make contributions, what is a much higher priority for me is to help the next generation grow into their roles as scientists and science managers and leaders.
So it can't be all about me anymore, and it doesn't have to be... I've had a productive science career, and a productive management career... I've done pretty much what I'm going to do... maybe a couple of things I'd like to do left... but I'm happy with where I got to in the scheme of things.
It's actually a very nice place to be.
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Ay Aye
Social climber
MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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Sep 10, 2015 - 12:06am PT
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'It Thought Me'
The weight of the brain weighs heavily on the mind,
There's the part of the self that we never find,
Round and round so tightly wound we're always bound,
The miasma of all our circuitry seems so unkind,
Some parts are left behind and some remain,
Melded and molded the meltdown has melted,
It scours the chrysalis hatching new birth,
What part was metal then now is new flesh,
Heart muscle is cauterized with iron mesh,
Scraping at the new world for all of its worth,
And sweet Caroline what beautiful music you sing,
Swaying to blues on a warm summer day,
If I could hold you and I could caress you,
Your love would sweep all of my troubles away,
If I could just be with you on this warm summer day,
Our minds are not there yet,
My mind and your mind's a lifetime away,
There's only this moment though,
There's only this one you know,
There's only what we don't know,
I know we are the dream,
We know so much more,
We have so much potential,
We can always dream more,
What will we let love teach us today?
-Ay Aye
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2015 - 04:22am PT
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Just a quick thought here.
Living life with no meaning is essentially impossible because we are by nature meaning-makers. But we can try and live with no meaning, or occupy a subjective space where meaning is meaningless, which usually causes our best nature to come forward - paradoxically.
No-meaning is a slippery term, and many people tend to feel negatively about feeling a meaningless orientation, not realizing that this negativity (nihilism) is itself a meaning, a negative one. NO MEANING precludes generating ANY value judgement, good or bad, about your experience. Your experience simply IS. And when values attach to your experience, that "this is good," and/or "this is awful," you simply let those feelings and judgements be, treating them as meaningless. Obviously this is an existential exercise, not an orientation we play out, for example, with our girlfriends. Telling Sheila that her hourglass figure and tenderness and intelligence and billion dollars and chalet in St. Moritz mean nothing to you does not, as they say, get it done.
Easy to describe. No so easy to step out of generating meaning.
JL
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 10, 2015 - 05:41am PT
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While I think it's good to let go of former biases and limitations as much as possible, I think this happens to most people at some level as they age. We look back, just happy that we're still here and and laugh at how we used to care about such trivial things.
However, if we focus on anyone other than ourself for any length of time, we need to make choices. Therefore we need to care about what kind of person we want to be, how far we want to extend ourselves, how much energy we have to do so.
Personally I am going to teach online for many more years past official retirement as I too feel I'm not done with guiding young students. I still have mountains of data to publish because now it has become historical and I have knowledge that few younger members of my Sherpa tribe have but are interested in. I'm thinking more and more than my years of meditation in middle age were to reorient me somewhat to the later years. I'm doing more of the same as when younger but with a different attitude. No ambition, just a desire to go on being useful.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 10, 2015 - 07:16pm PT
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Jan:
I like how you express what you see in front of you in your last paragraph. It’s a vision.
However, as for “needing to make choices,” “needing to care about what kind of person you want to be,” . . . I have doubts.
From my point of view, what looks like choices aren’t. They could well be functionalities that are simply you. What you do is what you are; it’s not like you have free will to be that which you are not.
Indeed, were that true, then “caring about who you want to be” would be irrelevant. “Caring” might constitute a diversion, an entertainment, something to observe with interest—but “caring” might be just thoughts that arise, simple manifestations (from God knows where). Taking oneself to be concrete, serious, real ,as [your name here] could be a fictive construction of linking memories (which are only occurring now)—as one would thread pearls to make a necklace.
Even intentions could be thoughts that arise out of nothingness.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 10, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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I am large; I am multitudes . . . I am Legion
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 10, 2015 - 09:16pm PT
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I am tired.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sep 11, 2015 - 12:27am PT
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I think the functionalities that are me were formed at an early age and at this point I do tend to just do them without too much analysis.
However, I come from a family where I had one role model who was a paragon of integrity and one who never missed a chance to fudge and be sleazy in the name of self interest, so for me there was always a choice to be made from as early as I can remember.
The fact that I chose one role model over another and strived hard to stay on that path caused me to function as I do now. I don't think our choices ever stem out of nothing if we trace them back far enough.
I could even go back further, using karmic reasoning, and say that I was incarnated into a particular family to be given that choice in this life.
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