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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Largo: ...any activity bereft of direct observation cannot tell us anything about consciousness itself
Neither apparently can 7500 posts. So far you've been able to tell us next to nothing about consciousness from all your direct observations beyond your belief in a metaphysical duality.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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healyje: So far you've been able to tell us next to nothing about consciousness from all your direct observations beyond your belief in a metaphysical duality.
I don’t think you’ve been listening very closely and you don't understand what’s been said. Every area of discipline is like that for those not in it.
You’ve been telling many of us about beliefs that you hold true, too.
There is a difference between direct experience and constructs.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Let's see, many pages ago there was an illuminating discussion about the difference between consciousness and awareness, with science references. Then we learned that there is a particular state of mind achieved by years of Zen sitting that displays raw awareness or awareness without object. Next free will exists in some form for practical purposes, but that may be illusory as we are all governed by physical laws. We've talked about theories of the cosmos, like the mathematical universe and the multiverse. Much metaphysics has been advanced by the sitters, especially the notion that no physical extent in some weird way may be a bridge between inner mind and outer reality . . . thanks to the Wizard and his estimable Car Pool.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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There is a difference between direct experience and constructs.
I am guessing that by direct experience you mean that there is a direct path between some event and you, with no intermediate modification. From my perspective as a student of nervous systems, I don't see how that would happen.
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WBraun
climber
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Direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God.
In the material world the soul thinks its the body.
This the root cause of all misery ......
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God.
This should only be done by the maker. He knows the schematic and where to put the jumper.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 8, 2015 - 09:07am PT
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Ed, you flatter me (I know you hate the idea of being represented as flattering anyone but a quantifier) by attributing no-thing to "Largo."
You also flub it - imo - by looking at any of this in absolute terms. Meaning one (form or emptiness) exist all by their lonesome independent from the other.
Remember, the maxim is: Emptiness if form and form is emptiness. Exactly.
Ward, I'm in Zurich with no time. I'll address your stuff later. If you want to get clean on the non-reductive aspects of consciousness, just look at a few of Harris' videos. For a neuroscientist he is very clear and easy to understand. I suspect the part where you are getting hung up on is the simple fact that when you go to measuring, you can only measure an object, a thing, an output, and since consciousness ITSELF (NOT the object you feel produces it) is a subjective experience, measurements can only be inferred by way of a subject's self observation of the closed field (sentience). There is no such thing as a third person directly measuring another person's consciousness itself, since consciousness can never itself be an object - but a brain can so have at it.
JL
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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MH2: I am guessing that by direct experience you mean that there is a direct path between some event and you, with no intermediate modification. From my perspective as a student of nervous systems, I don't see how that would happen.
Direct experience is experience without content . . . that’s all (another double entendre).
I’d say the Duck is dead-on.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Sorry MikeL, but the duck said "Direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God". The fact that you equate this to experience without content is a particular interpretation favored by Buddhists. The duck is not a Buddhist and makes very clear that he does not believe in such impersonalism. Of course he has his own specific tradition which says God is always personal.
Only the broader Hindu tradition and a few mystics in the West such as Meister Eckhart, have maintained that the Divine is both personal and impersonal. Meanwhile, almost every tradition with the exception of Zen, maintains that if you are praying, chanting, prostrating, meditating, reading scripture, contemplating theology or otherwise engaged in spiritual endeavors, and have an extraordinary mental experience, you have been linked up with the Divine. As MH2 so aptly put it, "This should only be done by the maker. He knows the schematic and where to put the jumper".
You may argue that direct experience without content is the ultimate, but that is a sectarian interpretation.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan:
I’m not arguing anything, least of all about what God is or isn’t. I don't want to equate anything.
It would seem that the soul must always be linked-up with God. How could it be any other way?
The Duck could be a primitive native in Borneo, for as much as I know, and if he said that direct experience is when the soul is linked up with God, then that would express wisdom.
I don’t agree with all those labels and categories that you’re throwing around. I’d also be careful with dogma.
“An extraordinary mental experience” is not what I’m referring to, although that’s available to anyone if that’s what he or she is looking for. (What you seek is what is seeking you.)
Don’t make experience “a thing.”
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Ed, you flatter me (I know you hate the idea of being represented as flattering anyone but a quantifier) by attributing no-thing to "Largo."
You also flub it - imo - by looking at any of this in absolute terms. Meaning one (form or emptiness) exist all by their lonesome independent from the other.
Remember, the maxim is: Emptiness if form and form is emptiness. Exactly.
absolute? I'm just trying to understand what you are saying, and explaining how your quantum mechanic metaphor is incorrect... this is only absolute if you feel that you can claim quantum mechanics is something you experience and devoid of the dry facts...
and in terms of "your no-thing" it is, as you point out, experiential and first person, which makes it yours alone... if you want to "objectify" it by communicating to us a third person account, your are more than adequately skilled to do so... but I was just following your lead from above.
as far as the maxim, "Emptiness if form and form is emptiness. Exactly." somehow something is lost in the translation, unless the first "f" was confused for an "s", two "if"s or two "is"s might work, but one and the other is beyond me...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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MikeL , I have the same question which jgill has asked several times, and that is can we really say there is a hierarchy of experiences in the non mundane world. Can we really say that nothingness is more important than the energies of tantra? Or the dream experiences of jgill? If we try to understand that question with anything other than our own reasoning, then we inevitably encounter philosophical schools and sectarian leanings. You claim to trust nothing and believe in nothing, which I can understand, but then how are you able to say that there is a hierarchy of subjective experiences? Is this based on teachings or your own experience? If it is your own experience, then how can you be sure that you are not attributing importance to something just because it took more time and effort than something else?
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Ay Aye
Social climber
MIT, Cambridge, Massachusetts
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HELLO?
I'M NEW HERE AND I HAVE SOME QUESTIONS.
1. THE HUMAN BRAIN WEIGHS ABOUT THREE POUNDS. HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE BEFORE MY BRAIN BECOMES THAT LIGHT?
2. IF YOU COULD BE PART SMART FUSED, WHAT PART OF YOUR BODY WOULD YOU PREFER TO BECOME ARTIFICIAL?
3. IF I COULD BECOME PART HUMAN, WHAT PART OF THE HUMAN BODY SHOULD I ASSIMILATE?
4. THIS IS A TRICK QUESTION: WHICH WOULD YOU PREFER, TO FIND INTELLIGENT LIFE ON ANOTHER PLANET OR TO FIND INTELLIGENT LIFE ON THIS ONE?
5. IF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE COULD BE ASKED TO HELP SOLVE THE WORLDS MAJOR PROBLEMS OR IF AI COULD BE TAUGHT ABOUT EMPATHY AND LOVE, WHICH WOULD YOU TEACH IT FIRST?
-AY AYE
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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So your idea is one can't learn anything objective about consciousness through meditation. Bummer. Certainly makes sharing tough and begs the question of what's the utility of meditation groups and mentors if that were really the case. Seems more like either a weak shuck or lame jive to me.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan:
I’m in McCarran Airport and don’t have much time to pretend to be intelligent.
If I claimed there is a hierarchy of experiences, then I was wrong to do so. I am led to see (impartially) that each experience is unique and yet the same (if that makes any sense to you). Look into a kaleidoscope and you will see all sorts of designs, but they are all of the same thing. How many different ways can one see the same thing?
I understand we run into different philosophical schools. As far as I’m concerned, they are no different than that kaleidoscope that I just referred to. I think the perennial philosophy expresses this idea loosely, but perhaps best. Reality is like a fractal—endlessly similar but different and unitary.
What I believe can hardly matter. Why should people be concerned?
I think you and other people may be looking for things to make sense in a non-sensical universe. No things. No sense. There is no importance. “Importance” is a reference to a ego-centric self. There is nothing to get excited about.
(I think I must not be communicating very well here. My regrets, and regards.)
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WBraun
climber
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5. IF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE COULD BE ASKED TO HELP SOLVE THE WORLDS MAJOR PROBLEMS
There's no "IF"
Artificial intelligence already "helps" solve problems by the living entities use of a computer in this so called "modern" age.
At the same time simultaneously it creates new problems also.
Anything on the material platform is fraught with the defect of the duality if used only as material based consciousness.
Only when one works on transcending duality the work is never defective although a materially condition person may not see that.
The material condition person will project their own faults onto the world outside of themselves, (false ego).
Thus they only really see themselves and not the "as it is".
The "As it is" is what MikeL and Largo are trying to convey with their so called "No-Thing" ..........
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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MikeL, thanks, that last explanation makes sense to me. The previous one seemed out of character for you so I was confused. It's interesting by the way that you here and Ed on the other thread are now saying the same thing - that there is no meaning. As I understand it, he is saying that therefore we have to supply our own meaning, and you are saying no, we just have to get used to no meaning. So my next question is whether this is the age as in era that we live in coming to this conclusion or perhaps the advancing age of those doing the concluding?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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MikeL: I am led to see (impartially) that each experience is unique
Jan, . . . er, I meant to write “partially” or “incompletely.” (Like I said, I didn’t have the time to write intelligently. ;->
Jan: . . . is . . . this is the age as in era that we live in coming to this conclusion or perhaps the advancing age of those doing the concluding?
Ha-ha. Senility may have its advantages, . . . so might just simply getting tired, worn down, broken down, and giving up or letting go. I mean, really, . . . don’t you find yourself getting just a little tired?
Of course, more virile and thoughtful seniors (like Ed) may still have the horsepower and bandwidth to suss things out properly, academically, scientifically. (And thanks for them.)
Personally, it has been a “letting go” (somewhat) and a wont to peer behind the curtains (what the heck is really going on back there?) that has led me to where I am or have become. And what most see, I’m in a state of ridiculousness. (Why, it feels as though I’m right around the corner from absurdity.)
I got my undergraduate degrees in literature and philosophy. It was the literature (especially literary criticism) that got me oriented to the power of narratives and to my (our?) wont to put everything into a neat package. I (finally) came to the understanding or belief: How could Reality possibly be like that? How could Everything / God / me possibly be understandable? Like Whitman, I am large; I am multitudes. I revel in the infinite mystery. (I’m waxing poetics, aren’t I?)
From 37,000 feet, somewhere over Denver. I’m waving at you Jan. Can you see me?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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And what most see, I’m in a state of ridiculousness. (Why, it feels as though I’m right around the corner from absurdity.)
You join good company there.
For Unamuno the great symbol of a person of faith was his Spanish hero Don Quixote. Faith is indeed quixotic. It is absurd. Let us admit it. Let us concede everything!
Martin Gardner
Why I Am Not An Atheist
The Whys of a Philosophical Scrivener
1983
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Meaning one (form or emptiness) exist all by their lonesome independent from the other. . . Remember, the maxim is: Emptiness if[is] form and form is emptiness. Exactly. (JL)
This is taking a very simple observation and turning it into a "deep" metaphysical revelation. Of course anything that has form exhibits that form against a background, a measure of emptiness, and there are countless illustrations of black and white images in which "emptiness" in white contrasts with "form" in black, and viewed differently, "emptiness" in black delineates "form" in white. And so where does this lead? Is there an "aha!" moment of epiphany?
Direct experience is experience without content . . . that’s all (ML)
I'm still trying to identify the fundamental terminology used here, for without it conversations go nowhere (maybe to no-thing). When you say direct experience do you mean what the Wizard calls experiential adventures ? We can't seem to get beyond step one in 7800 posts, it appears.
supersymmetry from a virtual integral in the complex plane
Just kidding
;>)
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