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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Ed: one will make a construct to understand and explain...
That’s probably how it looks to you. It’s probably what you believe, and hence it is what you see. You don’t have to believe anything to see, to hear, to feel, to taste, etc. Raw unelaborated pristine awareness needs nothing to be perceived. You can’t not-perceive.
Drop the conversation and see.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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perhaps a reality, but perhaps it is something individual and "not real" who knows who is actually feeling pain, and who is just saying they are feeling pain? or who should be feeling pain?
Here is a reality, just ask those experiencing this reality (pain), that can not be objectified as truth yet remains an experience of such a universal nature it can and must be accepted as the reality we all know it is.
Declaring the experience of pain as only a kind of subjective experience with all the faults of subjectivity as unverifiable or perhaps not real, denies the authority of the experiencer who is the only possible source of the observation and the ability of that source to communicate the reality of their experience to others on the basis of shared experience. Otherwise, what is the scientific basis of efficacy for a pain relieving drug if not the statement of the experiencer that his pain has lessened?
The observation is locked into subjective experience but that experience is of such a common nature and shared understanding it is naturally accepted as reality.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Drop the conversation and see.
you imply (in your usual dismissive manner) that I don't... how do you know?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Otherwise, what is the scientific basis of efficacy for a pain relieving drug if not the statement of the experiencer that his pain has lessened?
how about anesthesia, where you can watch your body being cut into, physically manipulated, etc... without the feeling of pain?
where is the reality?
where is the experiencer when "under anesthesia"?
where does reality go when you are under "general anesthesia"?
where does reality go when you sleep?
what does science have to say about that? (it's pretty simple, actually, under that particular construct)...
Declaring the experience of pain as only a kind of subjective experience with all the faults of subjectivity as unverifiable or perhaps not real, denies the authority of the experiencer who is the only possible source of the observation and the ability of that source to communicate the reality of their experience to others on the basis of shared experience.
you seem to equate my identification of "subjective" as a pejorative..
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Interesting thoughts on pain. In my experience with pain and trying to make it go away there are several approaches that I have used. One is locating the source of the pain and treating it either manually or medicinally and thus eliminating the source. Another is to use drugs that treat the pain itself and those have never really eliminated the pain, only lessen it or distract you from it. And then there is meditation. This can be difficult depending on the amount of pain but I have eliminated severe pain with a technique some might consider derived from meditation. Some might say otherwise.
It seems there are several different things going on with pain and Mind and to me it suggests that the mind can override certain natural functions of the brain with sheer force of will. It also suggests interesting potentials that could be further explored, either scientifically or in personal subjective experience and both approaches could bear fruit.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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you seem to equate my identification of "subjective" as a pejorative..
Not really, though it (the subjective) becomes problematic in the search for a shared reality.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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the subjective becomes problematic in the search for a shared reality.
interesting statement... why a shared reality? and how does the "sharing" happen?
it would seem that anytime we start to "share" we are moving beyond our "subjective" experience towards an "objective" experience. That shared reality exists even when an individual among the sharers ceases to...
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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And then there is meditation. This can be difficult depending on the amount of pain . . .
The question arises: how can meditation help reduce pain which occurs when one is physically active?
I work out several times a week, despite severe shoulder arthritis. I begin each session slowly and methodically with very easy exercises, and gradually the pain recedes after passing a critical point. After that point I lose attachment to the pain and/or it essentially disappears. How can (sitting) meditation help in this situation? Or, am I actually using a kind of meditation in motion? Are there other meditative techniques that might work better?
Incidentally, this technique did not work with rock climbing as the pain kept worsening - which is one reason I left the sport several years ago.
Finally, something of substance in this thread!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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The example I had in mind is my experience relieving pain associated with a severe gout attack. The pain is severe, sometimes continuous and lasts up to several weeks. In the beginning I use ibuprofen until my stomach is toast or they aren't strong enough. Sometimes if it is not too severe, I can walk around slowly working to the point that it is ignorable, but that usually just makes it worse. If I can go dark and quiet I can get to that point where the continual pain just melts away and I get a break. It doesn't fix the problem, but at least I get relief and so as soon as I go back to action, the pain returns eventually. I have done similar things with muscle and joint problems. I'm sure there is some kind of medical explanation or some kind of established technique but I just figured this out, out of necessity. I think the mind is capable of some amazing things and people tend to limit themselves for lots of reasons.
Basically, the conscious mind can willfully interrupt or over-ride impulses from and to the brain. I think there are already several established techniques like Bio-feedback and these are fields that are being actively investigated.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"Finally, something of substance in this thread!"
With all due respect, you and I see things very differently.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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With all due respect, you and I see things very differently.
You make that sound like an issue. Or am I just reading too much into that?
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WBraun
climber
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severe gout attack.
The karmic reaction for the supporting and maintaining industrialized slaughterhouses is severe gout attack.
The karmic reaction for the supporting and maintaining animals to send to the industrialized slaughterhouses is severe gout attack.
Stooopid Americans are violent abusive fools and killers and thus their karmic reactions is lots of violence and wars in their society.
Stoopid Americans and their hamburgers ......
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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When you sit retreats pain comes up and since you are stuck on the cushion you get a chance to watch it. When the mind settles the pain appears as a energy or tension point and if you observe/feel closely it is changing constantly and quite a bit of the time it isn't even there .
Rather than labeling it pain and as something you wish would go away you just watch it and it changes the relationship.
Jon Cabot Zinn has done alot of work with meditation and pain and started a very successful program at UMass medical that has been adopted nation wide.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Ed: Drop the conversation and see. you imply (in your usual dismissive manner) that I don't... how do you know?
From your writing. Just above you wrote . . . .
Ed: I take it from the continued participation of the set of people engaged on this thread that we continue to create constructs to enable our engagement on this topic. Anyone can see this who is sitting with their terminal in front of them reading and responding to this thread.Reality as we know it is a construct...reality as we don't know it escapes our conversation here... however we can speculate over methods to achieving knowing, which is OP's launching initiative. What a method does to achieve that knowing requires a construct of both the method, and the new knowledge...
I did not mean to be dismissive. But "dismiss" is what seems to be called for.
Any discursiveness is a conversation. I can understand it plainly if we are just talking here; but, if you are trying to triangulate or reason-out Reality, then I don’t think you can do it. I don’t think anyone can do it. Just about every liberated master has said so. And every so-called “practice” is a finger pointing at what cannot be articulated. But it can be known.
As Largo keeps pointing out, IT’S THE EXPERIENCE that’s “the matter” (pardon the pun), and I mean experience AS experience—not as content. Content are beliefs. Experience is consciousness . . . not of “any thing.” No-thing. Get it?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I have eliminated severe pain with a technique some might consider derived from meditation. Some might say otherwise.
If you can eliminate or reduce severe pain, that is the main thing. It isn't necessary to know how it works. In medical school courses at U of Chicago we were told, "Medicine is still largely empirical." Meaning that it isn't necessary to know how a technique works in order for it to work. People used aspirin for thousands of years before learning how it works.
There are advantages to knowing how a technique works if you want to improve on it and understand why it works for some people and not for others.
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WBraun
climber
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The material body is the source of all misery for the living entity.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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The karmic reaction for the supporting and maintaining industrialized slaughterhouses is severe gout attack.
The karmic reaction for the supporting and maintaining animals to send to the industrialized slaughterhouses is severe gout attack.
Stooopid Americans are violent abusive fools and killers and thus their karmic reactions is lots of violence and wars in their society.
No, actually, it's a lot worse than that.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Or, am I actually using a kind of meditation in motion?
I myself do this, and I'm sure many others as well. Working in construction my hands suffer some punishment. Early in my career one boss demanded, "take slivers out on your own time!" and that's resonated throughout my life. One day while pouring 27yds of concrete w/o gloves, my hands rubbed raw till bleeding and the lime burned like a mutha. But I couldn't stop till the job was done. Once I cut my finger in half jus behind the nail. Under my own pressure to get the job done I jus duct taped it up and continued working. With blood dripping out the end, and ready to through up under Excruciating pain. With a sense of duty, I actually felt moving to a different place in my mind. I rose to somesorta precise seriousness with a wide eyed awareness within a complete calmness of humility. And worked more efficiently than I prolly ever had/have. Moving meditation? Prior to the cut I was 180deg in attitude. My ego was soaring like a bull in a china closet =:-/
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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But more important is the recognition that thinking is a construct and not becoming attached to these constructs.
This confuses me. Is thinking, or what we're thinking about, the construct?
Thinking seems like it should be right in there with heart beating, breathing, peeing and poopin.
Seems like one of the defaults of the body?
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Experience is consciousness . . . not of “any thing.” No-thing. Get it?
So work, research, climbing, gymnastics, surfing, etc. do not constitute "experience", eh? The word "experience" means sitting in a vacuous mental state? This is probably what JL means by experiential adventures - conscious observance of emptiness. Where's the adventure?
I, for one, am not impressed, but to each his own.
Constructs eh? Construct = something constructed. And away we go once again into nebulous land wherein dwells Oswald Rabbit and the Rock Candy Mountain. Used to love that comic when I was a kid!
Congratulations, Grandpa Wizard!
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