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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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May 10, 2016 - 11:43am PT
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It's Tuesday?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 10, 2016 - 12:01pm PT
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Evolution has no purpose or agenda. It is just flipping coins and seeing what survives to reproduce and what doesn't. Some adaptations are neutral. Some are advantageous. Some are fatal without medical intervention.
This is a pretty solid summary of how genetic variation and natural selection work...
With modern medicine, people born with traits that would have been fatal at worst can be cured and reproduce.
The robustness of our particular species as a whole is indeed being undermined by protecting those who would otherwise not survive natural selection to reproduce.
Although that fact is harsh, definitely not politically correct, and impolite, it's still a fact.
It can be argued, though, that the Anthropocene has changed the criteria emphasis for human species advantage from physical robustness to mental robustness. Here preservation of people who are neuro-atypical - a group that is rarely physically robust - is possibly advantageous in relation to our intellectual challenges to survivial.
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 10, 2016 - 12:30pm PT
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DMT, I lost you somewhere along the line. You seem to be arguing or the principles of evolution as a whole. It's always about the whole system - reductionism is just a useful abstraction.
Nature is a whole system and it doesn't need us and will be just fine without us - we just aren't that important. I seem to be in agreement with you rather than against you here.
Guess I'm confused about what it is you're saying.
You did argue for environmental pressures selecting for advantageous mutations (natural selection). Was that your point? Still confused...
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WBraun
climber
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May 10, 2016 - 12:35pm PT
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Nature is a whole system and it doesn't need us
Wrong
There's no difference between Nature and mankind except for degrees of developed consciousness.
Without mankind there is no purpose for Nature .....
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 10, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
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I get your point.
My point is that our manipulations have led to unnatural selection as I articulated earlier. Whether that is good or bad - adaptive or non-adaptive - is debatable.
Evolution after all does sometimes lead to species extinction...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 10, 2016 - 01:24pm PT
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I agree with DMT. History didn't end with Francis Fukuyama and evolution didn't end with technology. Points not mentioned yet however, include the fact that the U.S. is only 5% of the world's population. Even so, evolution is occurring here. Perhaps the simplest form of it is the fact that in all the modern societies, birthrates are down among the most educated (presumably the most intelligent) and well nourished. The U.S. would have a negative growth rate if we didn't have a high rate of immigration. Germany reached that point a long time ago, and thus invited Muslim refugees to enter. They just didn't plan for so many.
The future of the human race is being made in the developing world where the world's population is (China, India and Indonesia comprise more than one half of humanity). Not much advanced surgery there and probably the main selective factor is tolerance of appalling air and water pollution and crowding.
Their form of socially selected self evolution is the preference for male children and the sexual imbalance modern technology (in place of old fashioned infanticide) has created. In places with 100 males for every 85 females, those with more resources, will get the brides and the babies, definitely a form of natural selection.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 10, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
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Its still evolution, right? When we tweak the code?
And my point was that if we step outside the code by directly manipulating that code in our owns species as well as others we begin to direct evolution in a way no other species has since the beginning of life on this planet and I would say that makes us special, damn special! And in that manipulation is a remarkable potential that requires something better than pessimism.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 10, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
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I agree with DMT. -jan
lol!
On which of many points? Amino acids? lol!
Except for his age,
dmt reminds me of a college dropout who THINKS he's got it going on.
I'm tired of placating him.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 10, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
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Evolution has no purpose or agenda. It is just flipping coins and seeing what survives to reproduce and what doesn't. Some adaptations are neutral. Some are advantageous.
Again withit? Doesn't the first sentence contradict the rest of the statement?
Let me ask you this, where in Evolution is it exactly are you pointing of this "flipping of coins and 'seeing' what survives to reproduce.."?
Do you think "natural selection" is encoded in the organism's DNA, or cell structure? Is it meat?
i doubt that you do!? i don't think you would call Biology, or the mixing of genes, "A coin flipping"?
Natural Selection seems to be the direct correspondence between an individual organism and getting fed, and who is around in the SAME species to which to impregnate. i don't see much coin flipping going on there either.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 10, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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dmt, no worries, you got jan and blu on your team!
.....
I wonder if a "tolerance" for stupidity explains Smartass?
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 10, 2016 - 02:25pm PT
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and evolution didn't end with technology.
No, but Nature's natural evolutionary timeline did! Like Paul said since the beginning of time Nature has done a mighty fine job of sculpting the Life on this planet without any "measuring" or "plan" all the way up to Man!
Now Man says he want's to fix Nature. Ha!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 10, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
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Corny, are you lookin for some kinda trophy or sump'n?
OK, i hearby announce "Corny" Thee HIghhest Of Fructose Corn Spewge, EVA!!!
Let us all hold him high on our shoulders for his wondrous contributous smartabilityous !!!!
Hail Hail To the Amazing Cornholeyous!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 10, 2016 - 02:44pm PT
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rest assured, blu, only if you were on my side of things would I be concerned if not disturbed.
have a good one.
Familiar, I guess, with your background, as you've described it in past posts,
I only play softball with you. Take as you will.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 10, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
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My point is that our manipulations have led to unnatural selection as I articulated earlier. Whether that is good or bad - adaptive or non-adaptive - is debatable.
Evolution after all does sometimes lead to species extinction...
So does "your 'Evolution'" have the capability of recognizing the "good or bad" when a species goes extinct?
You seem to! and your a product of evolution, right?!
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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May 10, 2016 - 02:55pm PT
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...and in all likelihood we are accelerating the demise of our species by f*#king with the genome.
Hmmm...
An idea worth careful consideration....
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 10, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
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by f*#king with the genome.
but does he even know what the "genome" is?
I have my doubts.
(he's probably researching it now - for the first time in his entire (fuking) life.)
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Paul Martzen
Trad climber
Fresno
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May 10, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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Base104 stated,If we were all stripped naked and tossed into the jungle with no medicine and a competition for food and resources, then you would see evolution at work.
There is a common idea that evolution is slowed because of the survival and reproduction of large numbers of misfits and weaklings due to medicine and technology. I think this is a misunderstanding of the evolutionary process.
Evolution takes place through random mutations. The larger the population, the more random mutations will occur. Because of the enormous numbers of humans now living, evolution is accelerating in the human population. Hardship and natural selection are not necessary for evolution to continue.
We don't easily see this evolution, but a couple studies that were linked here at Supertopo in the last few years, show that human genetic diversity is increasing faster than it has in the past. This is because of the size of our population. The larger the population the more chances for genetic mutations, both good and bad.
We get overly concerned about all the supposedly "bad" mutations which are not being eliminated by natural selection. Think of a few points, though.
1 When some great new hardship - natural selection event begins, all that matters is that there are some mutations that can survive the change, and that those mutations had to be already existing. All the "bad" mutations become irrelevant. They are eliminated as if they had never existed.
2 Since we don't know what these future hardships or selection pressures will be, we also don't know what genetic mutations will be able to survive those future events. Suppose some future virus has an affinity for active brains and kills almost everyone with an IQ over 65. Maybe the only exceptions will be some cross eyed, asthmatics.
That is my opinion anyway. Probably a waste for my once a month or less post. I will try to post an adventure for June.
Paul
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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May 10, 2016 - 04:33pm PT
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It's a question of "selection pressure". Totally a non-issue for anyone versed in the subject.
Can selection pressure be eliminated under some circumstances? ANS: Yes.
Does this mean evolution isn't always at work in the background? No.
Only premature (ejaculate) posters like dmt - often bent on arguing for arguing sake - or else bent on pressing his ego or else POV - do not pause long enough to parse the differences or distinctions. That is the problem.
The great analogy is with gravity. Do "airplanes defy gravity"? Well, for those who take the time to parse it out, the answer is yes in one sense and no in another. It's the very same - analogously - with evolution by natural selection.
Is there "misunderstanding" amongst anthropes, the anthropic ape, who only a few hundred years ago were largely illiterate (if you can believe it) and still today largely scientifically illiterate? ANS Absolutely. It is the main (only) reason these silly merry go-rounds have any currency.
.....
Suppose some future virus has an affinity for active brains and kills almost everyone with an IQ over 65.
Perhaps a reason some people just "don't want to hear about it".
Well, too bad.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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May 10, 2016 - 04:54pm PT
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Two points;
That whole idea of just"random" mutations is not necessarily true. As a matter of fact we are just now (over the last 20 years) starting to get a handle on this. Check out the "Beak of the Finch"; more complicated than just random luck. I do think selection pressures is one way to put it...
and second, "Evolution after all does sometimes lead to species extinction...". Actually I'd say it MOSTLY leads to extinction looking at the fossil record. Only a few species have really been around very long geologically speaking.
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