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Mimi
climber
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:35am PT
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LOL! Mr. E.
Thanks for posting the photos, Tarz!
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:44am PT
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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Thanks, Tarz!
I'm pretty sure I could see an enhancement in one of those photos.
And there's a dimple on the dog's face.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:46am PT
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I'm smiling. Awesome photos. What a cool location.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:47am PT
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Actual climbing content us not permitted on this thread, Tarz. Sorry to have to tell you this.
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:48am PT
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Thus my smiling pooch to take your mind off of it!
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:55am PT
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That dog has definitely been enhanced.
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MisterE
Social climber
CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 01:23am PT
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Great shots! Reminds me how much hauling on slabs sucks ass...
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 11, 2011 - 03:37am PT
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If you consider the amount of granite that's been chiseled, drilled, gardened, pin-scared, or otherwise trundled off of virtually every El Cap route ever done, is WOS even in the top 60% of rock damage out there? Could anyone else have climbed the route with less damage? Could any of the damage be seen from any other route or the ground if they didn't climb it?
I don't get where anybody has cause to grouse about the route in retrospect. Why not just admit you had a limited or wrong idea and let it go? After all, few climbers still revile Harding and his WEML climb or bathook ladders on many routes. We had many pages of debate about the South Face of Half Dome and none of the purists took issue with Hardings EXTREME enhancement of hook moves over there. Is it OK to drill bat hook ladders up Half Dome but not El Cap? (not that WOS did that?)
WHy hold on to a silly negativity when there is so little logical inconsistency to the whole complaint? All the enhancement required to climb WOS doesn't add up to 1/1000th of the amount of stuff displaced getting the FA of one pitch of Mr. Natural on the apron
Peace
Karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 03:48am PT
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Corrected rotation of one of Tarz' cool photos.
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Ryan Tetz
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 11, 2011 - 04:10am PT
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Congratulations! It's the first time you met with a troll.
If you argue with a troll, he wins. DONT argue with a troll. He will never stop, even if everyone is with you, and you are 100% sure that you are right.
I tell you, trolls aren't rare on the internet, since of anonymousness or wtf however they say it.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Jul 11, 2011 - 07:15am PT
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Coz, I'm a bit surprised at your comments up there, though I do believe that feeling mellow about current climbing controversies shows that we're growing up a bit (and also the fact that the old dads like us had their day and their say--recall our mantra back then: "you're only as good as what you did the day before").
First of all, having been close to both the free and aid camp 4 campers back in the 80's, I recall much more heated discussions on free standards than this current risible sideshow, with you generally in the center of it all (but of course with a passionate opinion based on perceptions of utilitarian good).
Second, I'm surprised that you had no idea of Grossman's standards back in the day. He was well known for being the absolute purist (both on free and aid, though in aid he was pushing the highest standards), and I believe he walked the talk, and in doing so, enabled many others to strive harder to respect the stones on which we clamber. And this is why he is so passionate today about this issue.
To me, the issue became more moot in the mid-late 90's when the momentum toward purism on the big stone aid routes reversed direction, when many new routes (often variations in reality) were established and reported as significant, even though they required well over 100 bolts/drilled holes to establish (i.e a very high drilled holes per pitch ratio).
Personally, as I have stated before, the route in question represents the ultimate in "artificial difficulty" due to it's z-macs and the prerogative of the FA's willingness to (apparently occasionally) enhance--these are things that make the second ascent harder, of course (Z-macs get weaker with time, and SA's aren't supposed to enhance when they get gripped or can't find an obvious placement). But these are things only someone who has actually spent a lot of time aid climbing would really understand, the fear of being only 15' above a ankle breaker ledge with a load of gear on your shoulders and dependent on the whims of a dicey piece of metal is a unique experience in the many variants of rock climbing.
Once again, I'm impressed with Ammon, certainly one of the greatest Yosemite big wallers of all time, for sacking up and going for the SA, especially under all this public eye.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:26am PT
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Interesting....when this was first posted in 2005 a number of prominent wall climbers criticized the style in which the route was established. In 2011 Mimi does the same thing and all hell breaks loose- what gives?
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426
climber
☬
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:29am PT
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What gives? The ever present VCs hiding in the manzanita...or in plain sight
cuius est solum eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos ??
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Tarz
Mountain climber
Calli
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Jul 11, 2011 - 08:55am PT
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Thanks Clint! Looked ok last night after a glass of wine!
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Jul 11, 2011 - 10:58am PT
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Donini, Mimi came clean as one of the cable layers in the other thread. She evidentally was one of those who "laid down" the law to WOS FA's. I believe it was in the shape of the Mark of Zorro.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:41pm PT
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It's weird that people who have devoted so much of their life to climbing don't seem to get it.
The rock is an inanimate object. I love El Cap, Half Dome, etc. but we don't protect "the rock" to save the rock, we protect it for our fellow ciimbers. The rock doesn't care if it has 'too many' holes, or gets chipped. It's going to be there for millios of years regardless. It's really about conserving the challenge that nature presented us for our fellow climbers. It's about respect for other people.
Pretty much nobody is "pure". Did Grossman back off his climbs if they required a bolt or a pin? Someone could have come along in the future and possibly free climbed that section. The game/challenge is to climb as pure as possible. Unless you pick a line that shows no signs of passage at all you are not fully pure. And unless you back down off a route that requires any modification of the rock from pounding pins, heads, or bolts, you are NOT pure.
Ethics and style collide in the FA. When a party does an FA they use up a small amount of the limited number of lines available, so they should do it in reasonable style (of course that's where there is plenty of room for debate, see Growing Up). For WoS there wasn't and hasn't been a whole lot of of people lined up to do that climb. Perhaps no one who have attempted that slab but them, so did they really take away the opportunity for some one else to do it in a better style? And from all reports, and we'll hopefully have even more info from Ammon and Kait it sounds like they did it in fine/bold style. How much crap they took, how much time they took, the fact that they wrote a book, the way the defend their actions, their prior experience, is really their choice, it doesn't effect anyone's climbing experince but their own.
So of course a lot of the detraction is from territorial claims. Emotionally driven. Dogs pissing on trees. The fact that someone could defend someone taking a crap on someone's ropes and still to this day say it was the right thing to do and the one who accepted responsibility for that heinous act betrayed the cause just goes to show how little respect some are willing to give and hence how little they should receive.
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Bababata
Mountain climber
Utopia
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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What the Fet wrote. Couldn't have said it better.
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jul 11, 2011 - 12:53pm PT
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^^^ That's just plain wrong. ^^^
But it is kind of the mark of Zorro, isn't it?
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Bubba Ho-Tep
climber
Evergreen, CO
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Jul 11, 2011 - 03:29pm PT
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Mimi,
Now I'm really confused.
In the posts you copied above, Calder mentions "rusty bat heads were frustrating" and "some god awful rusted bat heads.
How did you turn that into this:
Bubba, yes, the reports have changed over time. Since they re-emerged on climbing forums to reinvent themselves, they first held the position that every time the drill touched rock it was filled with metal, then a ladder of bathooks came to light, then a ladder of batheads came to light, and then the issue of 145 narrow Leeper Logan hooks and how those were made to work came up.
I mean, really.
How did "some god awful rusted bat heads" turn into "a ladder of batheads?"
Interestingly, a few posts down the page from the Calder post is this, written by madbolter1:
"The batheads were a lame experiment, which we readily admit and quickly abandoned, and there are only a few of them."
So Calder says "some" and MB1 says "a few" and you say a "ladder."
My definition of "some" or "a few" is just that - some, or a few. To me a ladder conjures up images of "a lot" - as in something that you couldn't miss and would have been mentioned rather than dismissed as "some."
Last, you say that a ladder of bathooks came to light. On the original Reid topo, which outdates any of these lame threads, there is clearly a ladder of bathooks connecting to the Aquarian - and they are labeled as "bathooks", nothing else.
Right here:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=963934&msg=1018145#msg1018145
Does your assertion above mean that there is a second ladder that was left off the topo?
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