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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 20, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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Randisi: I couldn't help but imagining the same thought-processes going through the head of an executioner. Wisdom or rationalization?
Two points:
As long as your “imagining” triggered an unelaborated pristine experience, what difference would either term make?
Would you say that an executioner (or parent, or administrator, or climber, or reader, etc.) shouldn’t be in-the-moment fully, rather than generating anxiety in repeating feedback loops of rumination?
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Bushman
Social climber
Elk Grove, California
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Mar 20, 2016 - 09:31am PT
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Mar 20, 2016 - 12:11pm PT
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phrase for the day:
spiritual materialism
Budai - carries his few possessions in a cloth sack, poor but content, admired for his happiness, plenitude, and wisdom of contentment.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 20, 2016 - 12:36pm PT
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Nice Bushy:)
i think what i miss most from the old thread was Fry's Cactyy's:l
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 20, 2016 - 12:53pm PT
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In an odd way, everything was perfect. Here I was evolving and learning—and them too. At the end of the day in the last analysis, none of it will make a whit of difference to anyone (MikeL)
My wife (retired English teacher) and I have read and reread your post about flunking five students. I had thought that I would simply let this slide by, but Randi's post has opened an avenue of discussion. I am assuming this was a senior level or graduate class and that it was required for graduation. In my own many years of teaching at most college levels in my discipline my experience with flunking students has usually occurred at the freshman or perhaps sophomore years. Even there I would advise a student as early as possible of alternatives, like taking an incomplete if appropriate, and finishing the course in some other manner. I did give a lot of F's, nevertheless.
When a math major reached their senior year they rarely received a failing grade, for the weaker students had dropped the discipline earlier. However, a few received C's and even, though rarely, a few D's - the latter requiring them to retake the course.
It would appear to this outsider that your "Team of Five" may have been inappropriately assembled, although that is certainly not necessarily the case.
How did these students react? Were they convinced that their failing marks were an act of compassion or love? Were these working adults taking a night class, trying to improve their career opportunities? Were there alternatives available to you to mitigate their plight?
All in all, neither my wife nor I can comprehend your line of thought - but it takes all kinds to make a world.
One last question: do you consider yourself a post-modernist business prof and/or do your classes entail the sorts of arguments you present frequently here on ST?
Universities should present to students a wide variety of thought and opinion. I suspect you are appreciated in this context.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 20, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
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jgill, I think there is a fundamental difference between what math and English teachers experience in mostly flunking unprepared students in the early stages of education and the cynicism and sloth that other instructors sometimes have to deal with at the higher levels. I much prefer teaching freshman students who are still eager to learn and amazed that they even made it to college (I work with a lot of folks from disadvantaged backgrounds).
Sadly by the time they are juniors and seniors, many students have figured out how to game the system to get by with the minimum amount of work and don't care about anything but collecting the credit and the degree. My favorites are those who try to intimidate the instructor by sending an email at the beginning of class announcing that they have a straight A average and expect to get an A in my class too. And yes, I have admonished some of these later on, that attaining something less than perfection is character building.
As for Sycorex, I think you overestimate what the average student learns in high school. Your APA classes are not the norm. More than that, ethics need to be taught at a much younger age. I have in fact been told by a number of grammar school teachers, particularly in the first three grades, that most of their time is spent in trying to civilize their small students, providing guidance for them that our generation used to get at home. Once the kids are no longer screaming and beating on each other, they can then learn to read, write, and figure.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 20, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
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More than that, ethics need to be taught at a much younger age.
See now that sounds like your saying the government needs to teach our children "morals", only in IMO, you've confused the conversation by using the word "ethics". Either way, are you sure your ok with having Trump for a Daddy?
and if you want ethics, Common Core doesnt't just drill the math and spelling whilst practically eliminating PE, music, and art. The math and spelling are just the bait/examples of dictating what's "right or wrong" and in that the bite of "Reason" sucks out the blood. HAHA! that i'd add a little dramatization. Seriously, Common Core should be named, "Common Reason" or "Reasoned Core". Again, my experience is with grade school, directly through my daughters 4th grd class. i heard a teacher reason to a table of 6 children that "sharing" is not reasonable. The lesson being, we should provide for ourselves and not rely on anyone else..
Now i'm down with; "i'll keep my morals out of the government sponsored public schools, if you do" public opinion/legalism. But common core has already crossed the moral/ethic line, IMO!
i would teach that sex before marriage is not reasonable. They[(the gov sponsored public school system),(ACTUALLY, it's The Public Sponsored Governmental's Opinion of a School System), they teach sex ok anytime if your reasonably protective. If yuor not, then come to the office for free condoms. They also teach if as a minor you(speaking mostly to girls 17 down to 9 years of age)become pregnant from an unreasonable situation, then come on down to the office and we will reasonably NOT tell your parents and drive you down to the abortionist and get that thing yanked on out of there! more drama;)
am i crazy?? on one hand they tell them to "share" their bodies, and on the other they say, "dont share your crayons"
for me, i don't believe the government knows the concept of sharing. What bugs me the most is that we've been hearing so much about getting God out of the classrm and being voted out. How did this "Reasoning Teaching" get implemented so fast and easy? Essentially without scrutiny or vote??
Mind you, i am grazing the grade school issue here! which i can't even believe ARE grade school issues!! They shouldn't even be high school age issue's yet the way i see it.
Regardless, OUR GOVERNMENT IS NOT IN PLACE TO DICTATE BEHAVIOR!
unless ofcourse you sign up for the Marines. The public school system is not the USMC.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Mar 20, 2016 - 04:40pm PT
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Would you say that an executioner (or parent, or administrator, or climber, or reader, etc.) shouldn’t be in-the-moment fully, rather than generating anxiety in repeating feedback loops of rumination?
It feels strange to see the deliberate taking of a human life compared to the roles of parent, administrator, climber, and reader. However, an executioner could also be a parent, etc.
Personally, I side with Werner Herzog on this issue (Into the Abyss) however fully into the moment the executioner may be.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Mar 20, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
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however fully into the moment the executioner may be.
while that sounds like romanticism, or what i might call romanism. It certainly dosen't fall under scientism, where everything is the way it should be;luckily!
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 20, 2016 - 06:20pm PT
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Jgill:
I should not plug-up the thread with numerous emails from me to the students, department head, and the associate dean.
There are 5 people in a team of 8 that failed the course. They got to forrm their own team, but this particular team may have been the dregs who did not have pre-established relationships. The rest of the students in my classes passed. They are all undergraduate seniors about to graduate within the next quarter or summer.
I’d say there is nothing post-modern about the course ostensibly. However, if they knew what post-modern was, they might agree with the term after undertaking the “real-world” analysis of a company within its environment (i.e., the difficulty and confusion of finding clear information and making sense of incomplete data) if someone were to define what “post-modern” meant afterwards.
The students’ reaction thus far has been very civilized and respectful. They seem to have great respect for me (“one of my best classes ever,” blah blah.), but who knows? I cannot distinguish what they said because they believed it versus what they might have said to influence me to change their grade.
I try to be as honest as I can about the content and the impacts of what we are talking about in the case studies of companies. I don’t promote the values of free trade, self-interest, profit-maximization, or romantic notions of leadership. I try to explain how all of those things might be ambiguous and uncertain. I also repeatedly tell them that all significant decisions imply suffering for someone.
I’m in the game for the conversations. As you can imagine, to be in THAT game, one must have opinions and be able to express themselves.
Initially, I am told, I am intimidating because I challenge their beliefs, but then later I’m told they realize there’s nothing personal about it. We’re just talking. I’m trying to build their confidence. (Some of my oriental students are not as vocal as my other students.)
I agree about what you are implying about teams. Teams often work because some team members are willing to cover or make up for freeriders or shirkers, or natural leaders step forward to fill gaps. The best teams are when competent people are all fulfilling their roles. Many student teams have shirkers, but then other team member often fill the gaps. When a team has enough shirkers, no natural leaders, or not enough competent people to fill gaps, it fails. That’s what seemed to have happened this quarter. It is a lesson to be learned.
I’m going to agree with Jan for the most part. Many students these days have learned to scam the system. Many of us teach courses and employ teams because collaboration is so very important in modern day organization. With rampant grade inflation and more street-saavy students, many students can skate by without much notice and graduate from college without much effort.
Most student teams are not enabled with the opportunity to evaluate their peers in any meaningful way, and when they are, they are not practiced at it. Shirkers and free riders get by with a pass, and there isn’t much of a consequence (punishment) for it.
Most employers do not hire people based on grade averages alone (nor should they).
For those of us in the profession who care about such things, we blame those early-year instructors who passed forward the shirkers, the uninvolved, the freeriders, those who best learned rote but cannot articulate or collaborate with others. We blame those instructors who emphasized purely academic content.
It’s my experience that you can be demanding with clear standards of performance, yet caring and fair. But it is also my experience that to do so requires you be human in all senses of the word. You have to expose yourself—open, vulnerable, fallible, humorous (even absurd at times), multi-dimensional, and clear about what you are ignorant about. I believe that you can manage or coach people without having to be omniscient and / or omnipotent—especially in your one mind. Once one gets the hang of it, it’s relatively simple to just be a human being within an area of expertise.
Oh yeah—and add love into the mix, too. You gotta really like your clients / customers and care for their well-being. With all that, you can practice what the buddhists call “skillful means.” You can exercise discipline, nuance, and empathy as each situation requires. (I’m making it sound easy, but it’s within reach. You gotta let go.)
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 20, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
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Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 21, 2016 - 04:52pm PT
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Exporting Jihad
An interesting article from the New Yorker about the ironic consequences of the Arab Spring. Tunisia had been under the thumb of a dictator for years, albeit a leader who enforced a secular state and demanded lessons in Islam taught to young students emphasis a kinder, gentler version of the religion than is seen too often in the news these days.
After the overthrowing of this regime, an actual democracy developed - the only such form of government in the Arab world. But, once the political yoke was thrown off the citizens, a poor community of eighty thousand near Tunis began producing radical Imams and Jihadis with such ferocity that now - and here's the irony - Tunisia has contributed far more young men to ISIS than any other Arab state. You can read and see how this author explains the phenomenon.
However, in the article one finds this gem of a thought:
"Oussama Romdhani, who edits the Arab Weekly in Tunis, told me that in the Arab world the most likely radicals are people in technical or scientific fields who lack the kind of humanities education that fosters critical thought" (George Packer)
And once again we encounter the old and creaky assertion that an education in the sciences, technology, and perhaps math fail to encourage or promote "critical thinking." I've no doubt Packer is on board with this. And, yes, this gentle barb is aimed at a culture that may show considerable deviation from our own educational system, but indeed if that is so it is evidence this attitude is more universal than I have suspected.
So, when you read posts by me, Dr. Ed, Andy and other science/math types that demonstrate our inabilities to reason and articulate our poorly conceived confabulations, don't think too harshly of us . . . we lack the thinking skills developed by the humanities.
;>)
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 21, 2016 - 07:01pm PT
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Gosh, I’d not be so sure about that. It’s a theory, probably based on an association and a particular interpretation of a writer.
One could argue that the situation and result are but another example of “unintended consequences.” People mean to do good, but . . . well, things don’t turn out as they had hoped. Situations are very often just too complex to accurately predict how they will turn out.
You walk along the edge of a pond, and you see a young girl yelling for help in the water. You jump in and save her. Good for you. Thirty years later she becomes civilization’s next Adolf Hitler.
The humanities maybe foster empathy about a set of subjects. So do you, Ed, and the others.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Mar 23, 2016 - 08:50am PT
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Jgill & Jan:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/22/science/empathy-presidential-election-2016.html?
A quote by Adam Smith that ends the article:
"It is not that feeble spark of benevolence which Nature has lighted up in the human heart, that is thus capable of counteracting the strongest impulses of self-love. It is a stronger power, a more forcible motive, which exerts itself upon such occasions. It is reason, principle, conscience, the inhabitant of the breast, the man within, the great judge and arbiter of our conduct."
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Mar 23, 2016 - 11:21am PT
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Mar 23, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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Dr. Bloom and a colleague are finding that the more empathic people feel toward victims of terrorism in the Middle East, the more they favor taking military action.
“If I want to do terrible things to a group, one tried-and-true way is to arouse empathy for victims of that group,” Dr. Bloom said in an interview. “Often the argument for war is rooted in empathy for victims of the enemy.”
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 23, 2016 - 04:29pm PT
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I believe this is more of an American phenomenon where we have been raised since birth to think that violence is a solution to problems. I doubt very much that an empathetic person in Japan, Switzerland, or Scandinavia or dozens of other countries would transfer their empathy to a desire for war.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Mar 25, 2016 - 08:42am PT
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Critical historical knowledge, Dingus, some might say, to correct thinking on several misc topics. You wonder how much different the world might be today if, say, ten times the percentage of humans knew of it.
Saw Trumbo last night, I bet you'd like it.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Mar 25, 2016 - 10:03am PT
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an odd twist of fate, DMT, I was "on the road" this week in Wichita KS and saw that same PBS program...
one of the interesting parts for me was the existence of the stories written in Cuneiform which were parallel to those that find their way into other ancient documents (like the Bible). This is not surprising, of course, if viewed from a historic, rather than a religious, point of view. The difference being that the religious POV conveys some supernatural authority to one story's version over another's. A process which is based solely on belief.
One can argue that science is also based on belief, scientists would point to the idea that science has to do with discovery, both of phenomenon and of the explanation of the phenomenon, which had not previously been known... where as the "truths" of religion are revealed, that is, cannot be predicted and subsequently "discovered." It is an essential difference, and a scientific point of view being one that actually seeds the refutation of the scientific explanations, and even sets the bound on scientific knowledge. To my understanding, none of the religions or philosophies place any limits on their points of view.
Back to PBS.
Of course I've been interested, for other reasons, in Sumerian records written on cuneiform tablets so I looked up, on Wiki of course, some information on that writing system. In the introduction one encounters the very interesting comment:
"Proto-writing lacked the ability to capture and express a full range of thoughts and ideas."
and though this thought might be more appropriate for the "What is [that thing which is not a thing] Mind?" thread one wonders about the assumptions that went into writing that sentence.
In particular, the "full range of thoughts and ideas" is necessarily informed by the present, not the past, so while proto-writing may not be able to "capture and express" our modern thoughts, it is not at all obvious that it inadequately captured "the full range" of proto-thoughts. Writing as a way of organizing thought probably has much to do about the emergence of thought.
That is not to say that thought didn't exist before writing, but certainly the way thought was communicated was very different, and tied up in the culture of learning through various forms of teaching, not only verbal but through example. However, our very modern forms of communication have a lot to do with writing, and I'd argue that emergence of writing has a huge influence on what we call thought, and also what we would define as topics related to the mind. I will argue that "mind" was a different thing pre-writing, as was "thought."
Interestingly, watching the PBS program has more to do with those other ways of communicating ideas than reading... but as interestingly, if you want to learn more you'll find it written somewhere. But obviously, we possess the ability to "think" in many different ways.
This is an example of the many errors we make in generalizing our individual experience to the entirety of humanity, for the entire history of humans. These odd battles related to the "discursive mind" vs. the "meditative mind," generalized to a philosophical statement regarding the nature of mind, seem so beside the point, they reflect an (at best) contemporary experience which may not be generalized beyond a relatively recent event, the emergence of writing.
And it is an immensely narcissistic presumption that our experience defines "mind" a presumption that ignores human experience prior to history, which happens to predate us by millions of years.
Once again, science at least provides us the means of asking important questions, and though they seem to be rather abstract and somehow removed from the importance of preening in front of our intellectual mirrors, present the case for "mind" that is utilitarian and physical, and has nothing to do with the emergence of religion and philosophy, which, in turn, are a part of a cultural desire to understand how to manipulate nature for our benefit, aka technology.
When viewed from the scientific point of view, the "specialness" of humans vanishes and we can view all life on the planet Earth on an equal footing, and as part of the global ecology, a dynamic physical system that dates back to the very beginning of the planet.
Not just as a belief.
This sort of knowledge is not "revealed" in any religious document or tradition. It is the result of scientific investigation.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Mar 25, 2016 - 10:22am PT
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It's been widespread knowledge among archaeologists and historians for quite some time now that many of the narratives in the Old Testament were borrowed from the Babylonians as the Israelites were held captive in Babylon for several generations and the cuniform documents were translated many years ago.
I would be interested to hear what NOVA's theory of the great flood was, as there are several candidates. The most recent one features the Mediterranean breaking through to the Valley of what is now the Black Sea and filling it up which evidentlhy happened. Personally, I believe it happened closer to Babylon as there is a 9 foot deep layer of mud across the region now buried below the sand.
Speaking of narratives, two of the most interesting I've come across are the stories of the rescue of Moses and baby Krishna which uncannily parallel each other. In one the baby Moses is rescued from a basket floating down the Nile and in the other the baby Krishna is rescued from a basket floating down the Ganges. Both were placed there to save their lives from an evil king and both later assume their rightful political and religious stature. One can't help but think this story also originated in Mesopotamia along the Tigris or Euphrates rivers and spread to both the east and west.
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