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jstan
climber
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Sep 14, 2009 - 04:44pm PT
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We have moved up our strategy. Fully automated bumping will start at 9850.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Sep 14, 2009 - 04:48pm PT
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Maybe it's too late now, but perhaps we should run a sweepstakes on the date and time this thread will hit 10,000 posts. It could fundraise for some good cause. We'd have to think up some rules with regard to frequent posters to the thread - some of them might manipulate the result.
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apogee
climber
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Sep 14, 2009 - 04:49pm PT
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"Still, just for fun, what's the issue with higher life insurance premiums for climbers?"
If the insurance industry was able to accurately categorize the risk associated with climbing as compared to any other activity, I would have less of a problem with the corresponding rates.
Problem is, the true risks (incident occurrence) is not very well understood by the insurance industry, and it is not differentiated much from other so-called 'high risk' activities. As a result, climbing is regarded in a generic high risk category, regardless of what the actual facts are re: incident occurrence. Rates are exceptionally high, and in many cases, you can be excluded from any coverage at all.
There is no doubt that the risk of death is higher during the drive to and from the mountains (combined with everyday driving) than the climbing itself. Why single it out?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 14, 2009 - 04:54pm PT
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Fattrad, we will never know just how much truth you tell.
"we", as you say, could mean anybody, your entire client list,
or just you.
"Net short" could mean anything, even one tenth of one percent
of your overall client list position could qualify.
Here's the point. If you are net short, you have been WRONG.
You have been LOSING money for your clients and the markets
made new swing highs AGAIN today. If your actual net short
position is small, your losses are small too, and so will
be any profit IF and WHEN the markets correct, as they could
at any time.
So, Jeff, we will never know just how much REAL exposure you
and your clients have.
I trade only for myself, for 40 years now, and I am NEVER
"net" long or short, it is a FULL, BALLS OUT, position.
I say all this only because I am sick and tired of you constantly trying to promote yourself and your business on this forum.
So, stick to making vague, unsupported socialistic pronouncements, and leave the market talk somewhere else.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:00pm PT
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"Still, just for fun, what's the issue with higher life insurance premiums for climbers?"
They could post the risk at the base of each climb, along with style and rating. Per climb pay as you go!
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:03pm PT
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Jeff, good advice and thank you.
Now remember, no more self promotions, keep it to yourself.
You don't need to cruise this forum for more cannon fodder.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:04pm PT
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The only reason that I don't have USAA health insurance is they used to have a climbing exemption. I wonder if they've changed that...it's been like 10 years.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:08pm PT
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Funny Gary Dum Bass
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Apogee, I'm not sure I agree with you on your risk assessment. First, I've always considered climbing a dangerous sport, as the pages and threads on ST can attest. We've lost too many good climbers who behave like human beings and make mistakes "only a beginner would make." Without naming names, I can think of too many in just the past year to conclude that climbing is as safe as, say, hiking.
In addition, I was able to have my "hazardous activity" surcharge reduced to almost nothing by contacting the insurance company and underwriter, who happened to be a climber capable of understanding relative risk. While the sample size of climbers is still relatively small, it's not so small that there aren't statistically significant data.
Maybe Tom Patey (who, sadly, died in a rappelling accident at age 39) had it right in his climbing definitions (paraphrased by me):
"Beginner" -- Someone (often dead) who should be kept away from the cliffs at all costs.
"Veteran [climber]" -- Someone whose death was inevitable.
"Hemp [rope]" -- A rope that breaks.
"Nylon [rope]" -- a rope that melts.
"Solo climber" -- one person falling alone.
"Roped party" -- several people falling simultaneously.
"The crux [of the climb]" -- Where everyone else unties to watch the leader.
etc.
It's a touchy subject, but I think I've stayed alive all these years in part because I recognized the extent of the risk I chose to undertake.
John
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:13pm PT
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More Right Wing Lies: LIE when the truth won't work:
Tea Party protesters trying to tout the size of their march on Washington last weekend have been passing around a photo of a packed National Mall. But the picture is years old.
Politifact asked Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, if the rally was big enough to fill that space. Piringer said no -- and moreover, the picture can't be from 2009.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:15pm PT
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Norton,
You and several other posters (including the initial one on this thread) assume that tea party protesters are either right-wing or Republicans. Most I've talked to are neither. They're populists who've had it with both parties, and demonstrate why I mistrust populism.
John
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:18pm PT
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Laughing at your narrow view philo and norton. Blood shooting out of your eyes yet?
The Government
plan ignores other possibilities so they can max out our premiums.
By forcing us to fess up and join the risky behavior group
and pay the higher premium and setting the deductible at $10,000
its just robbery. The claims adjuster will be urged/advised to make sure they cure you for under $10,000 if possible. Or at least say you're cured even if you're not.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:22pm PT
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Tell Werner he's going to half-to come up with more than $3800.00!
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apogee
climber
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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John, it is impossible to categorize the risk of climbing activity because there is no reliable source of data that clearly demonstrates how many climbers exist in the US, what qualifies as 'climbing' (many companies would call a hike up Mt. Whitney a 'climb', or a numbnuts touron wandering around the boulders in JT a 'climber'), the actual occurrence of climbing incidents and their outcomes, and on and on. By comparison, there is much better data on 'mainstream' sports such as football, basketball, etc, or work activities and environments (the entire worker's comp system is based on relatively well-categorized risks and rates of actual occurrence), or more mundane activities such as driving (really, really dicey, in my book).
Without this data, yours or my speculation on whether climbing is risky is just that- speculation. Gauging this on the incident/fatality posts on a Climber's Forum (with all due respect) is completely anecdotal.
Because good data doesn't exist, the policies and premiums are blanket assumptions made by risk managers in the larger insurance carriers. Thus, we are lumped in with activities that are completely irrelevant and incomparable, but we pay the price anyway.
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:28pm PT
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Hey Fat, do you have to buy two seats on a jet plane?
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:31pm PT
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Nope, Tea Parties are 100% right wing in origin and promotion:
Tea Party Express: Organized by anti-Dem PAC with history of smearing Democrats
Tea Party Express' purpose is to "highlight some of the worst offenders in Congress." Our Country Deserves Better PAC's website states that the Tea Party Express "will host a series of tea party rallies all across the nation. ... At each stop the tour will highlight some of the worst offenders in Congress who have voted for higher spending, higher taxes, and government intervention in the lives of American families and businesses. These Members of Congress have infringed upon the freedom of the individual in this great nation, and its time for us to say: 'Enough is Enough!' " [TeaPartyExpress.org, accessed 8/19/09]
Tea Party Express' "Target[s]" -- since removed -- were all Democrats. OCDB's website previously contained a section -- at http://www.teapartyexpress.org/races/index.html -- titled, "Target Races," which stated that in "order for the Tea Party movement to truly have an impact, we must vote out of office those politicians who have betrayed their constituents by pushing through massive deficits, higher taxes and government intervention into the private sector and private lives of American families." All 30 targets listed as of July 28 were Democrats. The section of the website has been removed since Media Matters for America last accessed and reviewed the section. [TeaPartyExpress.org, accessed 7/28/09]
OCDB formed by Republicans. OCDB PAC "was formed in August [2008] by California political consultant Sal Russo and former California Assemblyman Howard Kaloogian." [Associated Press,10/16/08] As their OCDB biographies note, Russo is a veteran Republican consultant, and Kaloogian served as a Republican in the California Assembly.
OCDB's mission is to oppose Obama and "Democratic Congress." On its "About Us" page, OCDB states that "we must stand up to Barack Obama and the Democrat-controlled Congress." The PAC also solicits contributions by stating, "Help us fight the Democratic Congress!"
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Barcus
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, Ca.
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:35pm PT
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OK so its gonna reach 10K @ 11:57 PM tonight!
Now we're just postin to get it there. lol
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:41pm PT
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The much higher cost of getting an injured climber from a cliff to a care facility is part of their calculation as opposed from a traffic accident where the ambulance can drive right to you.
We can imagine the insurance forms will be quite detailed asking
such things as how far from a road will you be climbing? How high?
Percentage of Helicopter friendly weather days in the area...
Their will no doubt be a special page for El Cap climbers.
If any data is in error you'll be denied coverage.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Sep 14, 2009 - 05:51pm PT
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