The New "Religion Vs Science" Thread

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jgill

Boulder climber

The high prairie of southern Colorado

Mar 16, 2016 - 02:44pm PT

It is instructive that people who seek meditation often have had crises that knocked them out of that pleasant Eden

That's been my feeling, too. If one is pleased with their "I" and is not an egomaniac who causes suffering or deprivation in others, then why make the effort to expel it? Perhaps Asiatic societies in which there is less room for individuality due to crowding have encouraged the dampening of "I"?

Jan?

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 16, 2016 - 04:19pm PT

Jgill and MH2 said "It is instructive that people who seek meditation often have had crises that knocked them out of that pleasant Eden
That's been my feeling, too. If one is pleased with their "I" and is not an egomaniac who causes suffering or deprivation in others, then why make the effort to expel it? Perhaps Asiatic societies in which there is less room for individuality due to crowding have encouraged the dampening of "I"?"

I went to a zen center at 19 yrs old out of curiosity (not crisis) because I had read Zen and the art of archery I was also a gymnast so I understood the idea/structure of practice. when I went there in the early days I noticed that I would worry less about outcomes of school tests and gymnastics meets. I was more easily focusing on doing things rather than thinking about possible outcomes. This really helped in situations with a lot of pressure and fear. (like a self improvement model)

//But when I would sit retreats(10 hrs of meditation a day) I would experience moments of "one with everything". So there are two aspects; one is you are viewing your situation while sitting and the other is your POV radically shifts without notice to this oneness view. This is the radical part of zen that doesn't sit well with the ego (the small I). (The self realization model)

The ego typically does two things after this happens 1. it freaks out a little bit because it disappeared and secondly, it quickly co-ops the experience as it's own as in "I did that". //

IMO it seems to help people in crisis; because in crisis there is usually a lot of internal dialog going on about the crisis and you end up perceiving (by watching/noticing it during sitting) that a lot of the internal dialog can fuel the crisis. If you can take a step back from the dialog the next step is to let it go and move on to the present ie smell the flowers.

The idea of expelling the "I" is a misunderstanding. The small "I" is just the habit ( a very strong habit)of being attached to likes and dislikes. If you are not attached to likes and dislikes you are free and you don't need the meditation tool. Sit quietly for 30 minutes and watch your likes and dislikes come and go. Where do they come from?

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Mar 16, 2016 - 05:16pm PT

That book is effin awesome!

When my middle daughter was 20 she said to me:

"Dad, I've realized that I feel in harmony when I'm passionate about everything and attached to nothing."

I have a smart daughter. Brilliant as a diamond actually.

Lorenzo

Trad climber

Portland Oregon

Mar 17, 2016 - 12:36pm PT

Most Buddhist traditions recognize the Noble Eightfold Path: Right View, Right Intention, Right Speech, Right Action, Right livelihood. Thought, Right Speech, Right Effort, Right Mindfulness, Right Concentration.

Are you saying the tea party is Buddhist?

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Mar 17, 2016 - 01:05pm PT

Fun issue. The 17 Pieces of Zen Advice is a great piece by Kodo Sawaki Roshi [1880–1965] - the “Homeless Kodo" who traveled around teaching zen principles and practice to lay folks. He has the raw, humble, self-effacing, crude, joyful, and belly full of laughter characteristics that remind me of the sufi poet Hafiz.

Does the mystic's path all lead to the same place?

I love Mozart's work and brilliance, but don't think much of Mozart as a person. I love Herrigel's book, but don't promote his politics. Sometimes an individual's art and/or craft can transcend the individual.

Also, there is a distinction between budo and bushido. And, there is a difference between the ideals of bushido and the political manifestion of military culture in Japan that used bushido as a means of manipulating samurai to their shoguns control.

“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”
~ Miyamoto Musashi

LG, give us the complete list - all of the bad ideas from dead people and bad ideas from not dead people!

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Mar 17, 2016 - 01:54pm PT

PSP also PP said, "I went to a zen center at 19 yrs old out of curiosity (not crisis)..."

I am surprised that a 19 year-old would have gone through puberty and High School without crisis. Perhaps memory is selective.

I say that out of fun, though. Zen may help people but it is more than a therapy.

Part of my prior post was motivated by the phrase, "doing the work," which is a curious description for sitting quietly. How is meditation work?

Mark Force

Trad climber

Ashland, Oregon

Mar 17, 2016 - 02:21pm PT

Have you meditated? It is hard work to be focused while just sitting there! Easier to go work out or dig a ditch.

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 17, 2016 - 03:39pm PT

MH2 said "Part of my prior post was motivated by the phrase, "doing the work," which is a curious description for sitting quietly. How is meditation work?"

There are several levels to that question. the most obvious answer is it is work when you sit retreats; retreats usually start at 5am and end around 9:30pm each day and last from 1 day to 100 days. It is hard on the body and can be hard mentally also. Especially if you are prone to being bored or sleepy; many people fight sleep and boredom for long periods during retreats. There is often some difficult body pain especially in the legs or back or neck. Standard sitting schedules are 30 min of sitting and 10 min of walking for 2.5 hr sessions 4 times a day. Everybody sits at the same time and nobody moves much.

Pain can be a very helpful attention object in meditation. You can deconstruct it by paying attention to it , you find it is very veritable it changes a lot and is not there a lot. If you are not paying attention to it you may assume it is there all the time. And if you really pay attention to it appears to be just varying pressure , not extremely unpleasant.

If you hang out in your head (thinking) things can be very difficult. The main technique taught is to pay attention to your breath and especially to a place just below the belly button. On the in breath your belly expands and on the out breath it contracts (it is diaphragmatic breathing). Once you become able to stay with your breath and below your belly button you will usually feel a shift in your energy and pov , you usually relax and feel more aware. you will often start to feel like you have a ball of energy in your lower abdomen and it can be very strong and pleasant feeling. Don't attach to the feelings good or bad just stay with the breath.

In the beginning most people spend most of the time on the cushion day dreaming about the drama in their lives and have a few moments of attention to the breath. With practice it gets easier to shift from the daily personal drama to the breath. It is hard for people with a lot of drama. Mantras are good for people with lots of drama or those that think about physics the whole time.

The other level of your question is; it is not work! Eventually, and maybe immediately, meditation is "just being here now". No work is necessary to just be here now. Just seeing , just hearing, just touching, just thinking, just smelling, just tasting moment to moment perceive clearly. Mind is no hinderance.

So to sit on the cushion is like a testing ground for if you are able to "just sit" effortlessly . Often I find I can't "just be" I am distracted from just being by all the drama associated with me. Most important is that is not good or bad it is just an observation something to recognize.

With practice meditation should become almost effortless if you are doing it correctly.

One last thing from a zen point of view often on the in breath you might ask the question "what is "I"? and on the out breath you answer with just listening, just seeing, just being. I have explained a zen style of meditation ; vipasanna and Tibetan and others have different styles but all typically have some point of attention required.

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Mar 17, 2016 - 05:21pm PT

So it's work because it is difficult?

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 17, 2016 - 06:00pm PT

OH; we actually call it practice.

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Mar 17, 2016 - 07:14pm PT

we actually call it practice

As do I. The phrase, "You must do the work." is not mine.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 17, 2016 - 08:59pm PT

Lovingfossilfuel, keep those "Bad idea's" to ur self eh?

that Chapman is real crap man!

Jus play'in, it's actually good to know where chapman stands..

Jan

Mountain climber

Colorado & Nepal

Mar 17, 2016 - 09:27pm PT

Lovesgasoline-

Thanks so much for the reference to The Dark Side of the Tao.

I've been saying similar things for 50 years to the surprise and consternation of many ranging from Zen Buddhists to Asian Studies scholars to casual Japanophiles.

Here's my favorite quote from that long article.

So what went wrong here? Simple enough. Logically, the "silent teaching" is a poor, indeed an empty, basis for moral judgment. Confucius, not the Tao Te Ching, was correct about that. Taoism opened itself to misuse, and so did Ch'an, though many people still have difficulty believing that the "true religion" or the proper "peace of mind" can actually accompany wrongful, even cruel and atrocious, actions. But this is the case.

It is not to say, on the other hand, that Taoism and Ch'an are without value. They are of great interest and value -- Taoism corresponds quite nicely to modern theories of spontaneous order; Ch'an is quite orthodox Buddhism when it comes to the defeat of reason by enlightenment and Nirvana; and Zen really may help both with archery and with motorcycle maintenance -- just not as morality.

Even real holiness in religion may be accompanied by moral error. Morality is a matter for reason, and both religion and aesthetics can be morally judged, regardless of their own claims, intuitions, or logic. The real lesson is for the Polynomic Theory of Value, that morality, aesthetics, and religion are about different things, logically independent systems of value, but that human existence combines them all.

In Buddhist terms, the dharma as a moral teaching cannot be replaced with an incomprehensible transmission separate from the texts; and the blind obedience of the samurai, whether practicing Zen or Jôdo, was neither righteous action nor right livelihood.

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Mar 17, 2016 - 09:53pm PT

Thanks Jan for narrowing that in. that caused me to go back and reread:)

that's my favorite part too.

MikeL

Social climber

Seattle, WA

Mar 18, 2016 - 10:06am PT

Grading is done!!

"Bad ideas?"

I’ll challenge either word. Ideas are concepts, like a thought. Are there such things as bad thoughts? If one has a bad thought, then is one bad? These are just things that appear to occur, just like everything else.

The notions of bad or good, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate are all questionable, relative, contextual, biased, and selective. They are all socially constructed, as well.

If anything, thoughts, concepts, and descriptions are inaccurate and incomplete.

Where is your reason in these discriminations? How does one reason morals? Aren’t morals value claims? How does one reason out a value?

“Oh, . . . but there are bad people doing bad things!”

Well, that’s a view of what things are.

I wouldn’t get too energetic about saying what the Tao is or is not. All of these things are pointers to that which can’t be described. Look right in front of you at this very moment. Describe consciousness. Describe reality. (Good luck—and I mean that in the kindest way possible.)

Try not to get yourself all balled-up with discriminations, with distinctions, with assessments, with trying to pin anything down finally. It’s nice to talk with friends and all, to share the elements of our time and culture, but taking any of this talk really seriously and concretely constitutes a glitch in the system. At best, it’s fun, right?

In Kashmiri Shivaism, it’s said that yogis do not reject any description because they are incomplete or inaccurate; rather, they accept every description because they are incomplete and inaccurate.

MH2

Boulder climber

Andy Cairns

Mar 18, 2016 - 10:13am PT

Describe reality.

Describe the Universe and give three examples.

(Part of an MIT mock test given to freshmen.)

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

Mar 18, 2016 - 11:37am PT

Jan posted " Logically, the "silent teaching" is a poor, indeed an empty, basis for moral judgment. Confucius, not the Tao Te Ching, was correct about that. Taoism opened itself to misuse, and so did Ch'an, though many people still have difficulty believing that the "true religion" or the proper "peace of mind" can actually accompany wrongful, even cruel and atrocious, actions. But this is the case. "

This sounds like it was written by someone who did not practice zen and thus is speculating (probably an academic).
Speculating in that Zen is focused on (what is "I"?) as in the small "I" the craving "I". It is this self oriented "I" that commits the "Immoral" acts. One definition of immoral could be using other people to get what you want ie. being self oriented. From this POV Zen is going after the very root of immorality. To be selfless is to be moral.

And as far as the samurai misusing zen; anything can be misused. Just look at the crazy KKK claiming to be Christian's.

Morals are a slippery slope ; people are constantly trying to justify immoral actions ie one side's patriot is another's terrorist.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Mar 18, 2016 - 11:44am PT

This sounds like it was written by someone who did not practice zen and thus is speculating ...

do they teach that in zen practice, too? it sounds a lot like Largo... anyone who hasn't "practiced" cannot criticize...

one should be careful of such defenses, for exactly the reasons Jan brought up...

what constitutes a "valid criticism" of any such practice? In this case I suspect that the critic has to demonstrate that their "I" (big "I") is not involved... interestingly, they probably cannot since they posses a critical thought... so none...